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Bigger Menu perhaps ?

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muswell
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Bigger Menu perhaps ?

I was wondering before the beta goes gold, is there any chance to be able to have a bigger menu?

The menu looks good but if I have a larger screen I think I should be able to use it.

Thank you

[Topic clarified by mod Tim]
was: A last feature request (maybe)

Simeon
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I think

the menu size is fix.

"What about Love?" - "Overrated. Biochemically no different than eating large quantities of chocolate." - Al Pacino in The Devils Advocate

muswell
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A choice would be good,

A choice would be good, instead of being babied around.

digitxp
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Agreed

FYI, geek.menu has had resizing functionality for a while now.

Insert original signature here with Greasemonkey Script.

muswell
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Thanks

The menu is working fine, as beta I've had no issues but it's been so long since an update and I'm really starting to think of how lacking it is in some areas, and this I believe is long overdue.

NathanJ79
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Themes

Doing so would break themes, which are based around a set menu size.

Some of the forks of the menu allow for resizing, and they use a repeated bitmap to allow the menu to be scaled. Pretty sure the official menu's themes use a static bitmap which has to be a certain size. The theme I use, for example, shows a Rock Band note "highway", it's a picture that would have to be stretched or compressed, or you'd have null space (perhaps the dominant color of the theme?) below or cropping. Not a deal breaker for me if I really wanted the resize feature, but the powers that be really want this thing pretty.

A better solution IMHO is better management of the information that's there. You can see what, 21 items at a time (from memory, didn't count). Categories is the answer to that. At home I must use the R34 menu. Have to. Too many apps not to use categories. But I don't install apps at home (except antivirus, etc.), I strictly use portable apps, so when I reinstall Windows, all I do is drop that PortableApps.com Platform shortcut to the desktop and rename it to PortableApps Home. We manually launch it shortly after any reboot.

muswell
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You don't offer a solution,

You don't offer a solution, only patronism.

That's fine, it's just not accepted.

P.S. Weren't you the guy who was booted before?

NathanJ79
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Discussion

This is a discussion forum, and that's what I offered. Wasn't trying to patronize you, nor offer a solution. The software is open source -- the solution is to do it yourself or hope someone else does. Or discuss it.

Never been booted from here, either. They've only booted a couple people that I've seen. One for being rude, and the other for being rude plus abusing the formatting. Not sure where you got that from.

muswell
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jammcomm

jamcomm

NathanJ79
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That's one of 'em

Yeah, him and listless. If that wasn't before you signed up, it was right then. I've been here longer than the three of you put together, so I'm not sure where you got that I was one of them.

I did defend jamcomm, in that he was using the formatting correctly. Most people underutilize formatting on forums for whatever reason (e.g. too much work) so it was making his posts stand out, that plus an attitude similar to the one you're exhibiting in this topic, but amplified and over a good period of time.

muswell
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obviously and you went on

obviously and you went on with this massively stupid tirade about how people should be able to say what they want on forums, without curtailment.

Anyway, categories are fine but I think it's better to have the size of the menu change if a user so wants it. All it would mean I guess would be that the length of the menu would carry down the screen and the width of the program entries in the list would expand sideways, ie., by dragging the bottom corner of the menu via "footplate" but how to make it look nice at the same time I don't know.

The extending of the menu would I suspect need to happen before any further options such as "tooltip" were to occur when hovering the mouse over an application shortcut.

NathanJ79
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What?

I did? When? Still doesn't explain why you thought I was one of the ones who was booted, or why you're going after me because the PortableApps.com menu doesn't behave as you like. I am not one of the developers. Did you know that?

I agree that the user should be able to change the size of the menu, I was just saying that the way it's drawn currently forbids it. They can change that. I cannot -- while it is open source, you need an expensive program to compile the code. There's a free version, but apparently some premium features are used. A version compiled with the free program would have to omit those features. I don't know what they are. Nor do I know Delphi.

muswell
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What are you talking

What are you talking about?

It's a simple feature request, and the post title was kindly edited by staff.

Are you saying they use commercial software to generate open source code?

Personally I don't think you have a clue.

computerfreaker
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Knock it off

muswell, knock it off... Nathan has been quite reasonable. Let me go through, on a point-by-point basis...

* Banning: AFAIK, Nathan has never been banned, and has always been a respected member of the forum.

* Delphi: although I'm not one of the menu developers, I do know they use Delphi to compile it. There was a recent thread where the menu was discussed and a few people half-jokingly requested a C++ port because they didn't have the cash for Delphi.

* Menu resizing: As Nathan tried to explain, the menu can't be resized without breaking a lot of (most of) the themes. Sure, tiling would work, but only for solid-color images; nothing even mildly complex would look good, let alone some of the elaborate themes that are out there.

Maybe someday the menu will be resizable and somehow themes will work with that, but we haven't gotten to that point.

Peace! Smile

"The question I would like to know, is the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything. All we know about it is that the Answer is Forty-two, which is a little aggravating."

muswell
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Well I don't use themes and

Well I don't use themes and for those that do, maybe they will need to make short-term sacrifices for the ability of resizing the menu, otherwise the "themers" will have to redevelop their work.

This is nothing new, it happens all the time in web world, why does anyone think google is having so much trouble becoming standards compliant, yahoo even more bother and ill. Microsoft of course transitioned fairly well but their support for open standards outside the realm of meta languages leaves much to be desired.

Again, this is a feature request, it's not my point of existence to have to work out these issues, that I believe falls to people like yourself and others who understand the background.

NathanJ79
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muswellWell I don't use

muswellWell I don't use themes and for those that do, maybe they will need to make short-term sacrifices for the ability of resizing the menu, otherwise the "themers" will have to redevelop their work.

Yes and no. I mean, that is pretty much how it happens. Themes for the current menu won't work with the new one anyway, and some of the best themers will jump on the new format and have their themes out in relative short order. It's never been an issue.

muswellAgain, this is a feature request, it's not my point of existence to have to work out these issues, that I believe falls to people like yourself and others who understand the background.

Tread carefully with this line of thought. The responsibility to develop free, open source software for you to enjoy doesn't fall to anybody. These people here are passionate about what they do and they're great at taking criticism where it's deserved, but you should keep in mind they're donating their time to these projects. And money, in John's case. They don't ask for anything, except a little bit of respect, and then, only when called for. But they deserve much more than they get.

muswellAre you saying they use commercial software to generate open source code?

Yeah, funny, isn't it? Open source just means that the source is freely available and you can alter it if you're able. Doesn't mean the source has to be in a language you can compile at no cost. Aside from the obvious caveat that hardware (a computer) to compile the code on costs money, the software does not need to be free. It's shocking, I know, but it's true. Also, copyright can still cover graphics and titles. PortableApps.com and Mozilla both reserve the rights to their name and logo. What this means is that while you can freely change Firefox, if you wish to redistribute it as yours, you can't use their name or logo. Look up the web browsers Blackbird, Orca, and Iceweasel -- these are all modified Firefox builds that couldn't be called Firefox. They are basically Firefox with minor changes. I don't even think Iceweasel has a Windows distribution. (I've always wanted to switch to an alternative Firefox, as long as it did everything real Firefox does, of course, which it should.)

muswellPersonally I don't think you have a clue.

Always willing to learn.

OliverK
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lets just tell him about PAM

lets just tell him about PAM MOD R34 and the fact that different themes can be sized differently so he can leave.

Too many lonely hearts in the real world
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Too many tables you can't turn
Don't wanna live my life in the real world

muswell
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Now who's being rude. All I

Now who's being rude.

All I am asking for is for the ability to alter the size of the menu via a footplate.

What could be more simpler?

Thinks like CAFE and so on should be a part of the menu, not a separate download even though it needs testing.

I'm just the end user, I shouldn't be expected to take on developmental responsibilities.

computerfreaker
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muswell, enough. Although

muswell, enough.
Although scaling the menu might seem simple, I assure you it does have complications.
Should the items on the menu be scaled too? Or should they be left at normal size? If the items are scaled, should their text & icons be scaled too? How will the text & icons be scaled without distorting them? If the items aren't scaled, how should they be positioned so that they'll still look good?

And keep in mind, these are easy questions for a human to answer; computers don't have anything remotely approaching human intelligence. John would essentially need to build AI into the menu, which is not nearly as easy as it sounds. (And yes, I know this from personal experience; one of my own, unpublished, apps supports theming but still doesn't have scaling support that plays nicely with themes)

You asked a question and got your answer: it's not going to happen anytime soon, use the R34 Mod. If you're not happy with that, I would suggest you write your own app. We're all ready & willing to learn from better apps (heck, our launchers are pretty much all copy/pasted from other launchers), and I can't imagine anyone would turn down the chance to implement scaling and theming in their own app.
(Also, we'd be delighted to see someone else helping out instead of just asking for new stuff)

And just because you're an end user, doesn't mean you can't help develop... Patrick Patience, one of the best-known and most-respected users on here (also a mod), recently left PA.c. In his farewell message, he talked about, when he first joined PA.c, being a newbie and asking newbie questions that had already been asked. Because he was willing to learn & willing to help, he quickly became one of PA.c's star developers. The rest of us developers all started as end-users too. And, like you, we decided something didn't do quite what we wanted/needed, and wrote our own apps to do it in a better way. You're welcome to join us anytime you like. (Although I would recommend dropping the 'tude; it's not going to be appreciated)

Finally, commercial apps are frequently used to produce OSS. John uses Delphi, a ridiculously expensive development environment; I use REALbasic, another ridiculously priced development environment. OSS doesn't mean the development environment is free, it just means the source code is free. That's perhaps the biggest paradox surrounding OSS. (It also means OSS developers frequently lose money, since they're shelling out for the development environment but not receiving any cash in exchange; instead of complaining, maybe donate a few bucks so John will have more time to put into the menu. Keep in mind, John's got a real life - the hours he's putting in are all volunteer hours)

IMHO, this discussion has gone on long enough... let's drop it before it gets any more heated.

Cheers!

"The question I would like to know, is the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything. All we know about it is that the Answer is Forty-two, which is a little aggravating."

muswell
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Cheers too! Sounds like you

Cheers too!

Sounds like you know your stuff, and not just inventing it as you go, that is very good.

I can't honestly say that at least the head developer would be any poorer for doing these applications, google adds might only pay for the site and nothing more but that's alot more than many poor people out there have with no voice and is a purely a mark of intelligence.

Of course there are many talented people here and as for the computer/human comparison, well I am a human and over time I develop expectations of software I use and it should not be considered a crime to voice an opinion, especially when it's already been done as a hack on an earlier version.

Maybe John Smith and Mr Haller can get together on this and make it a reality, obviously I'm not the only person who has thought about it even though it was on my own about which I did think, there is a theory on this I believe.

Anyway, one can only hope.

Greetings all.

NathanJ79
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PAM MOD R34... now for PAM 1.5.2!

OliverKlets just tell him about PAM MOD R34 and the fact that different themes can be sized differently so he can leave.

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, pets of all shapes and sizes, it's me, it's me, it's P.T.C. or PortableApps Theme Central.

Well, not really. I don't have anything to do with them besides using their R34 menu at home, just because I need the categories there. You (muswell, not OliverK) need resizing. R34 does that too. It will install right over 1.5.2. (If you have 2.0 beta 3, you'll have to install 1.5.2 first.)

muswellAll I am asking for is for the ability to alter the size of the menu via a footplate.

What could be more simpler?

Categories, since allowing resizing means redoing the entire theme system, which is not impossible, but requires, possibly, more work than you think. When netbooks got popular, a feature was rushed in to make the menu smaller on those little screens, but to make the menu look better on bigger screens isn't a priority, I don't think. Categories remains the most-requested feature and it's not even a priority. I'm not a mind reader and John doesn't have a timeline, but I knew Format 1.0 and Installer 1.0 were a huge priority, but now they're out. Categories are still expected, just maybe a little closer than Duke Nukem Forever. (Kidding, guys.) The updater seems to be the big deal now. That, eXpresso, and portable fonts.

muswellThinks like CAFE and so on should be a part of the menu, not a separate download even though it needs testing.

I believe that's coming soon. John won't release anything if he's not confident it's well tested.

muswellI'm just the end user, I shouldn't be expected to take on developmental responsibilities.

Certainly not, of course, but end users of Internet Explorer made Firefox because they were tired of it. (Maybe they had other reasons, but isn't it a sweet analogy?) There are two kinds of programmers out there. There are those who have an original idea and there are those who believe something could be better, so they learn how to do it and they attempt to actually do it. (Oh, and there are the ones who work for Activision, and churn out mediocre Guitar Hero title after the other with no regard for quality, but they're beside the point.) Also all programmers are also end users. Even Linus Torvalds (he made and maintains the Linux kernel) uses software made by others. So does Bill Gates and whoever all's in charge up in Redmond. So does Steve Jobs. And they're the big dogs.

muswell
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Thanks for all your typing,

Thanks for all your typing, but it is a joke is it not to expect me to uninstall my current version, install an older version, then a mod then again the beta, and on top of that you speak not only for yourself in saying you don't want what is being proposed but that you know what's on the minds of the developers as well.

Come on, give the guys here some credit and let them speak for themselves.

Any way to add a poll to this topic?

http://usb.smithtech.us/projects/spm.php

NathanJ79
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No polls

No polls. Far as I've seen the feature is not activated. You can only manually poll the community, ask for ayes and nays or whatever.

Staff members can, will, and do speak for themselves at their discretion. And I said I wasn't a mind reader, not that I was. I repeat what I've heard.

Nobody expects you to use R34. You demand resizing and you're posting ugly replies to anyone who'll tell you the current menu doesn't do that. R34 does. If you want the feature right now, there you go, it is available to you. If it's too much work, your only other option is to wait. But you can no longer say you don't have have choices. To do nothing and just wait is a choice as well.

computerfreaker
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Seriously, knock it off.

Seriously, knock it off. You're really getting out of hand, and I expect a mod will drop in shortly and give you an official warning... please don't take it that far, we like peace here. Wink

As for mind-reading, Nathan never claimed he could. He was simply stating some well-known facts:
* John won't release anything unless it's been thoroughly tested
* The PAM doesn't support resizing
* The R34 mod supports resizing
* Cafe and other apps are likely to become part of the PAM soon, but not until they've been thoroughly tested (and yes, John himself was talking about adding Cafe, Portable Fonts Creator, etc. to the menu in a future release)

Now please, don't complain. Either use the R34 mod, get the PAM source and add resizing yourself, or quietly wait for John to add it in some future release. (Yelling is not an available option, sorry Blum )

Peace!

"The question I would like to know, is the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything. All we know about it is that the Answer is Forty-two, which is a little aggravating."

Tim Clark
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Seriously, knock it off

This is the second time you have basically called for mod intervention.
Since you insist.

Give the guy a break. He made a request for what he wanted.
He did not realize that we have members here who feel the need to write dissertations on every request which can't be fulfilled.

The points have been made, stop replying and move on.

Mod Tim

[edit: and there is no need to bump this topic again by replying to this]

Things have got to get better, they can't get worse, or can they?

computerfreaker
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I'd like to apologize. Never

I'd like to apologize. Never really thought I was causing any trouble... I've been having some stress in my personal life lately, and I guess I let it bleed over into here.
My apologies. Sad
(Mental note to self: avoid topics likely to get heated)

"The question I would like to know, is the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything. All we know about it is that the Answer is Forty-two, which is a little aggravating."

muswell
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I thought about your idea, ie

I thought about your idea, ie what to do, well simply nothing should change (or be able to be changed) except the width and height of the program list field.

That's how it works with CSS, it should be applied here.

Thanks very much for a great app.

OliverK
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you can install them

you can install them concurrently.

Too many lonely hearts in the real world
Too many bridges you can burn
Too many tables you can't turn
Don't wanna live my life in the real world

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