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Switch between Windows XP and 7

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mlun
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Switch between Windows XP and 7

I have just purchased a new PC with Windows 7 64 bit, and then tried to start my portableapps programs. To my big surprise this didn´t work and seemingly you have to upgrade for example Thunderbird to run on 7. But what do you do when you have a mix of computers with XP and 7?? A little annoying I must say if this forces me to upgrade my two other PC´s from XP to 7.

Not much fun if I upgrade and start using TB now, and then in a week when I return home, I can´t use my email any longer Sad

John T. Haller
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Works Fine

The current version of Thunderbird works fine on Windows 2000, XP, Vista, 7 and Wine under Linux. I run Windows 7 64 myself. I can't imagine you were using a version of Thunderbird old enough that it didn't work on Windows 7. If you were, that would be the least of your worries as a version that outdated has huge security issues.

Sometimes, the impossible can become possible, if you're awesome!

mlun
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But not for me!

Thanks John! I´m using TB 3.1.3, so this should be pretty new or the newest. When I try to launch TB 3.1.3 Portable under Windows 7 I get this security message: "Could not initialize the application´s security component. Please check that this directory has no read/write restrictions and your harddisk is not full or close to full. It is recommended that you exit the application and fix the problem. If you continue to use this session, you might see incorrect application behaviour when accessing security features"

If I choose to continue I get the TB "System Integration" window where I have to choose which applications to use TB as default client for (E-Mail, Newsgroops, Feeds). If I press ok here, TB starts up, but just seems to stand working forever without any action.

So if I then unmounts the portable harddrive and puts it on my Laptop with XP, everything starts up normally (no security message, no System integratioon prompt, and it connects to email server).

Something is different on the W7 box!

Jimbo
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NTFS?

sounds like you're using NTFS, and it is exactly what it says, you don't have access to the folder.

I'm just leaving my computer for the day, but if you are using NTFS on the drive, then searching on this site should show you some solutions. Or someone else may be able to give you isntructions. Sorry I don't have the time to go into detail.

Good luck

mlun
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Yes I´m using NTFS

but I simply do not understand why this should be an issue. Should there be a difference running this on XP or W7-64bits? I have searched the site for discussions on FAT versus NTFS, but most threads are from 2007.
NTFS is AFAIK considered superior to FAT and the drive on my new W7 box was preformatted with NTFS, so I assume this is considered ideal for W7-64.

John T. Haller
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Yup

NTFS was never intended for removable drives, so the security setups get royally messed up when you move it between PCs. Particularly between new-security OSes (Vista/7) and old ones (2000/XP).

The solution is to either use FAT32 or to use NTFS and disable security descriptors (which can be done by formatting as FAT32 and using the Convert command with /NoSecurity... or possibly by going into advanced permissions and setting Everyone with Full Access).

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mlun
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On second thought it might be

On second thought it might be an idea to follow your last advise "..possibly by going into advanced permissions and setting Everyone with Full Access". This seems to work, at least for the "portableapps" folder where I have tested it, so now TB and FF starts fine.

Although, will the disk remember these settings from the W7 box, so that when I use the disk on a W-XP box for a while, and then goes back to this W7, then things have not been messed up? And if I get another W7 box, will permissions then be remembered per W7-box?

Ed_P
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NTFS - yes, but...

The journaling of NTFS puts an extra R/W load on USB drives which may decrease their life expectancy. However, if you are planning on putting files larger than 4GB on the drive then you need to use NTFS. But moveable flexibility will be impacted unless you do the steps mentioned above by John.

Ed

mlun
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Howto reformat from NTFS to FAT32?

Thanks for your help with this. Seems as if formatting to FAT32 is the way to go, but must admit that I cannot see how to do this. Can I reformat so that the data remains, or do I need to format from scratch and load the data back from a backup? And what about the FAT32 32GB partition size limit? My drive is 500 GB.

Chris Morgan
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Reformat

You will need to reformat the disk to turn off the security features of NTFS or to change to FAT32.

FAT32 doesn't have a 32GB partition limit. Its limit is many terabytes. There's a 4GB file limit, but that's all that could be an issue for your disk. The problem is that it seems the formatting utilities on XP/Vista at least don't allow creating more than 32GB partitions. Third party formatting tools can do it generally though.

For an external disk drive, I would recommending reformatting it with turning off the security descriptors. Then the user account problems go away. John mentioned how to do that above.

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mlun
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Thanks. But do I just simply

Thanks. But do I just simply go to the Disk Management in W7 Control Panel and choose format with the parameters thar John specified? Will it keep the data, or do I need to backup and restore?

Chris Morgan
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Backup

You will need to back it up or you will lose your data. Reformatting essentially deletes the partition and then creates a new one in the specified format.

I am a Christian and a developer and moderator here.

“A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.” – Proverbs 15:1

mlun
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exFAT or FAT32??

After 3-4 hours of copying to make the mackup, I am finally ready to reformat the drive. But no such thing as FAT32 is offered in the Control panel - you can only choose between NTFS and exFAT. I assume exFAT is the way to go, but better ask as FAT32 has been specifically suggested. Perhaps this should be done via a command prompt?

ottosykora
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need FAT32

and yes , windows will not help you here much.

I have also some simple tool called Fat32Formater, there is also something called Drivekey (HP formating utility) which is used for preparing usb sticks for bootable use, and then all sorts of formating and disk management software.
G-parted , they have bootdisk too, you can try PartedMagic where the g-parted is one of the tool included . Just see their website, it is free.

Otto Sykora
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ottosykora
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and use 3rd party tool

since as tated, windows will refuse to that operation, windows will format only partitions up to 32gb.

So take something like Parted Magic boot CD or similar, this will do the job definitely.

Otto Sykora
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mlun
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Thanks a lot Otto, Parted

Thanks a lot Otto, Parted Magic worked fine. However, I could not specify the "no security" parameter, but formatted with FAT32 anyway. The computer is now in progress with moving the backup back, but as this takes approximately one day (!), I would like to know if I could await problems using FAT32 this way, or it would be better to go for a normal FAT??

Tim Clark
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No Security option

Hi mlun,

I am sure otto will correct me if I am wrong about the following.

The reason you did not have a "no security option" when formating to FAT32 is that it has NO security options. That is the reason you are formating in FAT32, to get around possible "security" problems in NTFS.

The "no security" option is what you would use IF you were to format in NTFS and wanted to avoid the problems you have been having.

Tim

Things have got to get better, they can't get worse, or can they?

mlun
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Reformat completed

and now the portable drive is shown as FAT32 in W7, and security under "properties" has gone away. That should also be correct as far as I have understood.
My portable apps started all except Firefox when running as user "user", and when I then took my portable disk to a XP-box, everything worked. Then back under W7 and user "user" - Firefox still didn´t work. Then start as Administrator, and now it worked.
See, that I don´t understand, and I find it a bit annoying that I seemingly has got to work as aministrator to get the portable apps to work properly on a W7 box.

ottosykora
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correct!

there is no security bits involved in any FAT, this was after all the reason they had to create the NTFS to be able to implement it somehow.
One can format something in FAT (means FAT16 in most cases), but there are some limits then in partition sizes even there are now ways of doing it properly.
FAT32 seems to be the most universal file system for portable use, it can be used by other operating system too without risk of some data being lost.
Any current operating system can use it and so far only limit I know is that you can not store files larger then 4Gb on it. So you can not store an iso of full DVD for example. W7 will also refuse to store on fat32 its own backup files, it wants have full security on those files.

But you have access to the files on any current windows, mac or linux etc. Definitely minimum of compatibility problems with fat32.

The formating of devices noticed as removable by the operating system will be done also in NTFS automatically with no security in general. So for example an usb stick, which will report itself to the system as 'removable device' will be automatically formated by windows without security, so it will work anywhere with any user, portability is the aim here after all.
It is not so sure with portable hard drives. It depends on how their controller is set and how and where they were formated initially. Often portable usb hard drives, will also be formated by windows to the non security in NTFS, but sometimes if you buy them new they have been formated simply as disk 2 on 'normal' system. With the SATA it is also somehow problematic, since one can have an external disk, in nice external enclosure and connect it directly to the SATA bus connector somewhere on the backside of the PC. In such case it might not be able to report itself as removable and thus formating with NTFS might be with full security bits implemented, so files stored by a user will belong to this user then and will not be readable by other user (or other computer etc)

Also note, that all those 3rd party formating tools will not set the security anyway, they run from some linux often and will provide generic formating first.

Otto Sykora
Basel, Switzerland

mlun
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Windows 7 and portable apps simply doesn't work together

Now I have used my Portable apps since saturday on a new W7 Home Premium 64 bit box, and I must say that I am deeply surprised that some of you seemingly runs applications problemfree on Windows 7. For me it has been one continuing nightmare, and even after having formatted the portable disk with FAT32, it is each day a returning nightmare which programs will work today and which not.
TB has worked pretty ok all the way, and FF also most of the time. Google Chrome has most of the time not worked, but a few times fine. It seems as if the array of Windows updates that roll in every night simply destroy the machine, so every morning most likely more or less nothing works.
Have tried to start the programs in XP-mode, and that sometimes helps for some hours, but suddenly programs no longer work.
I'm reaching a point where I simply need to give up and start working non-portable. I use several hours every day re-booting and trying to fix a bunch of issues due to sudden frozen programs.

ceciliaFX
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using Windows 7 Home Premium 32-bit

I've not had problems with portable programs. I think one program (not from here) I made it compatible with an earlier windows OS, but it works fine after that.

maybe your issues have to do with it being 64 bit??

"No one man can terrorize a whole nation unless we are all his accomplices." - Edward R. Murrow

Jimbo
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64 bit here is fine

I rotate between Win7Pro32, Win7Home64 and XP32, and have never once had problems of the type described.

To be honest, it sounds like there is something strange going on on the Win7-64 machine the OP is using.

Have you somehow managed to install some 32-bit drivers or services on it? (should't even be possible, but could explain the instability). Alternatively, it could be a hardware issue on the USB port on that PC. Possibly for testing, try copying some of the apps onto the C: drive and see if they still crash when run from there?

mlun
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I can't rule out the

I can't rule out the possibility that the portable device has got an error, but don't think so. Yesterday I tried to start applications from C: and Z: respectively with identical results, but now I just tried to start Google Chrome from Z: (failed) and then from C: (succeeded). Can I somehow test the portable device for hardware errors (6 months old 500MB Seagate FreeAgent Go)?

Other than this, the only thing that might be suspect is that the HP/Compaq machine I bought with Win 7 Home Premium was with Spanish Language. The shop converted this to English against a fee. However, I don't think this is quite following the rules, so maybe the culprit could be burried here.

Have tried to RegistryBooster on th PC, and it reveals a high number of system errors (97) and user related errors (24). On the other hand I am a bit suspicious about such programs and is a bit reluctant to buy a license.

ottosykora
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start from C: ?

this might not be the best lucky thing to do, remamber: admin rights! they are sacttered on C here and there and one has to be careful.

External drive: are you connecting to what? Small netbook ? In such case be careful with what it will be able to do, since power from the usb port might not be sufficient for that. It may work for some time, for some time not.
Often the problem is solved when you use so called Y cable, it goes to 2 usb sockets on one side and can be connected to your external drive on the third terminal. Soemtimes this will provide more power for the external hard drive and make it work more stable.

Test: install portable apps on an usb flash stick, try from there , compare with the external hard drive. It might be all somehow slower, but in this case more reliable. There are no problems operating portable apps from usb flash device, that is what they have been for.

Yes you can certainly test the portable device for errors, same like any other drive.

And you are right , things like such fancy registry tools are not needed, windows 7 brings enough tools on board. As you could see, such tools will just indicate lot of nonsense 'errors' , the aim is only one: make you buy that thing.

On the other hand, operating external hard drive on those new low power netbooks is matter of luck.

Otto Sykora
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mlun
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I was aware about the power

I was aware about the power issues when connecting a device via a USB-port. In this actual situation the USB-port is on a normal computer - not a lap/note/net-book - and I would have assumed that the power situation this way was sufficient. Those times where I use the portable harddisk on my laptop, I always take care to ensure that the laptop is always connected to power. Also I have now tried it on 4 different USB ports on the computer.

Yesterday I tried to move the portable apps to my built-in C-drive, and it seemingly worked fine on Windows 7 this way. This morning however, FF wouldn't start up, but if I choose "administrator mode" it works (despite already being logged in via the administrator account). So it works a bit better on the built-in harddisk, but far from perfect.

Tried to download Seatools from Seagate, and tried to run a "Short drive selftest" and a "Short generic" test for the portable drive. These gave o.k. results. But I don't know if these tests only tests the disk surface (which I am pretty sure is o.k.), or they also tests the communication. Just in case something could be wrong with the portable device.

If you choose to let Windows 7 troubleshoot startup, and then selects XP-mode, will this setting also be saved for a portable app for next time start-up?

ottosykora
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moving?

first I would not recommend to 'move' the apps, as this will break number of things, particularly number of extensions will get confused after such operation.
Changing the path is simply not healthy for portable apps. They like mostly to be placed in their default path and they can cope with drive letter change, but not with path change.

If you need the app on other place, install it there.

Same is now valid for all your experiments. Simply install all in a reasonable place on the portable drive, run simple drive check from windows on it if you have any doubts abt the drive and this is all. No need for some special utils etc, windows has all tools for this simple action.
Experiment like copying apps with all its variable to different places do often end up in a mess like you have now.

I am using portable apps on w7, xp, w2k and sometimes even still on w98se and linux/wine.
Between w7 and xp had never any problems, no need for admin rights there or xp compatibility mode or similar, all works definitely out of the box if you do not misuse it and break it by brute force.

Otto Sykora
Basel, Switzerland

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