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8 Feature requests for Toucan

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March 2, 2008 - 4:57pm
#1
ruudboek
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8 Feature requests for Toucan

Firstly i would like to thank you for Toucan, it is really good.
I still have a few feature requests though:

1. Support for VSS.
It would be nice if Toucan would be able to sync files that are in use (locked files).
SyncBackSE or Cobian backup are all able to do this by using VSS (volume shadow copy service) which is available in windows xp, vista and windows 2003.

2. Auto backup of every file that has been replaced or deleted during the synchronisation.

3. Real-time syncing.
So that when, for example, a file is added to the destination folder, it will be copied in real-time to the source folder and vice versa.

4. True bi-directional mirroring with sync memory.
By that i mean that it would be nice if Toucan would be able to remember all the file synchronization actions.

The big advantage of a sync memory would be that, if, for example, you would delete a file from the source folder, it will also be deleted from the destination folder.

Right now, if i delete a file from the source in a mirror mode, Toucan will simply do the opposite, it will copy the file from the destination back to the source, so i will have the same file back again!

5. Conflict handling.
If you are going to implement some intelligent sync memory, then you are also going to have to implement some options for conflict handling, because it can be possible that a situation occurs in which a file has been changed both in the source folder aswell as in the destination folder.
This situation is very likeley to occur when, for example, a user changes a file on the source folder located on a laptop where at that moment no network connection is available.
If someone then also changes a the file in the destination folder and the network is available again, Toucan is confronted with a file that has been changed both on the destination aswell as in the source folder.

Maybe the user will then have to be confronted with a dialog asking him what he/she wants to do.
The following options can be presented (got these from SyncBackSE):

- overwrite destination
- overwrite source
- delete
- delete from destination
- delete from source
- move to destination
- move to source
- skip

6. Ability to run Toucan also as a service, so that synchronization will continue even when no user is logged on.

It would be nice if this feature would be implemented in such a way that only one instance of Toucan will be running at any time.

Otherwise, when you log on, Toucan will start and the service version of Toucan will be running also, that would cause conflicts i guess.

7. Force a Sync at logoff and at logon.

8. Prevent file corruption by renaming.
I am not sure if any options have been build in to make sure that files do not get corrupted when they are transferred to the destination folder, but to prevent file corruption from occuring because of, for example, a bad network connection it would great if Toucan would first copy the file to the destination folder and then rename it to its original filename. That should prevent file corruption.

SyncBackSE uses this technique also.

9. Resume support.

I don't blame you for not even looking at this feature request, because it will probably be incredibly complicated, but it would really great if that were possible.

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March 3, 2008 - 11:36am
Steve Lamerton
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Wow,

now that is what I call a long feature request list Smile

  1. This is the second request that I have had for this recently, so I'll have to look at it in more detail, however because it is so platform limited it wont be at the top of my to-do list.
  2. An interesting idea, do you mean perhaps by renaming them before they are overwritten to filename-old?
  3. This would be hard without some level of system integration, however there may be other ways of doing it, I'll have a look
  4. It shouldn't be doing this in mirror, do you mean in equalise, I am looking at proper bi-directional syncing in v2.1 probably, as there are already lots of new things that are coming in v2.
  5. As mentioned in the previous post these sorts of feature will be added in v2.1, I'll keep this in mind for then
  6. Probably not going to happen due to the level of system integration required
  7. As above
  8. Nice idea, it'll be in 2.0
  9. You mean like if you canceled job half way through then restarting it at the same point you left off? I'll look into this too

Sorry if I seem like I am not interested in your ideas, I certainly am, but at the moment large parts of Toucan are undergoing rewrites for version 2, and as such a lot of thinks will become much easier, so I'll defiantly look at this list again in the future.

Thanks again and welcome to PortableApps.com Smile

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March 3, 2008 - 7:14pm
(Reply to #2)
ruudboek
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Hello Steve,i really

Hello Steve,

i really appreciate you taking some time to look at my requests.
I have corrected my duplicate point 4 by the way Wink
Here are my comments/answers:

1. Regarding VSS support, windows still covers more then 80% of the market, so it's worth it in my opion. Also, if you want to make something 100% reliable, you will need something to get around files that are in use.
Also it will be a load of your mind if you no longer have to worry about applications that are still open, you get the picture.
And you will get better quality feedback if you can already rule out files in use being the cause of a failing backup/sync.

2. I don't mean renaming, i would create a folder in the same directory of the file that is to be replaced and then move that (old) file to that folder. Then copy the new file.
You could name the folder something like "$Toucan Backup 2008-03-02 15.26.23".
Dsynchronize uses this method.
SyncBackSE uses that method also, only SyncBackSE calls it versioning. With SyncBackSE you can also specify wether you want the backups to only be made on the source, the destination or both.

3. Maybe you could be inspired by Dsynchronize it has this real-time synchronization. Is is not truely real-time though, there is an interval of only 10 seconds in between the scans.

4. I have tried the equalize function but that did not work, the file that i deleted from the source was copied back again from the destination.
Just to make sure that we understand eachother on what true bi-directional synchronization means:

To explain in a nutshell:
If Toucan would be able to do true bi-directional synchronization, then if i would delete a file from the source, it will also delete the file from the destination.

If it is not true bi-directional synchronization, then toucan does not compare all the files that were present in the previous sync cycle with the files that are present just before the second sync cycle starts.
Only after comparison Toucan would find out that a file was deleted in the source and will delete the file in the destination also.
So you will have to build some kind of file list into Toucan and have it do a scan before synchronisation, then comparison the file list with the results of the filescan and then take action.

The real-time (bi-directional) sync from Dsynchronize can do this.
The same goes for SyncBackSE and every other serious sync tool.

5. Ok.
6. Totally agree, point 4 is way more important Wink
7. Ah that's ok.
8. This is great, can't wait for that, it's simple but so very effective in my opinion Wink
9. Yes, that is exactly what i mean. The only sync app that i know of that actually can do this without a server component is BestSync http://www.risefly.com/foldersynceng.htm

10. I have one more feature request, also low priority:
Bandwidth control. So that you can define a limit to the tranfer speed (for example 1 mb/sec).

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August 20, 2008 - 2:53pm
(Reply to #3)
ruudboek
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Bi-directional support still planned for version 2.1?

I am looking at proper bi-directional syncing in v2.1 probably, as there are already lots of new things that are coming in v2.

Now that version 2.0 is out, do you still plan to implement true bi-directional support in version 2.1 and implement shadow volume copy?
I'm really kinda looking forward to that, because it would enable me to finally replace my slow synctoy+cobian combo with toucan.

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March 3, 2008 - 11:45am
Simeon
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wow

He has 8 points and Steve has 9. How do you do that? Wink

"What about Love?" - "Overrated. Biochemically no different than eating large quantities of chocolate." - Al Pacino in The Devils Advocate

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March 3, 2008 - 11:48am
(Reply to #5)
Steve Lamerton
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He

has two fours Smile

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March 3, 2008 - 11:52am
(Reply to #6)
Simeon
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I see

said the blind man.

"What about Love?" - "Overrated. Biochemically no different than eating large quantities of chocolate." - Al Pacino in The Devils Advocate

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March 3, 2008 - 12:24pm
(Reply to #7)
Patrick Patience
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Haha

I just spent 5 minutes trying to figure out what Steve did wrong, I should read comments first. Blum

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March 3, 2008 - 12:29pm
(Reply to #8)
Steve Lamerton
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Oh,

yea of little faith *rolls eyes*

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March 3, 2008 - 11:53am
wingmanjd
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Deleting a Pair

I know that this can be done through editing the text file containing the sync settings, but making it possible through the program is something I see that is lacking.

Great program by the way. I use it all the time!

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March 3, 2008 - 12:19pm
(Reply to #10)
Steve Lamerton
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It'll

be in 2.0, and I'm glad you like it Smile

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March 3, 2008 - 7:13pm
(Reply to #11)
ruudboek
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Hello Steve,i really

Hello Steve,

i really appreciate you taking some time to look at my requests.
I have corrected my duplicate point 4 by the way
Here are my comments/answers:

1. Regarding VSS support, windows still covers more then 80% of the market, so it's worth it in my opion. Also, if you want to make something 100% reliable, you will need something to get around files that are in use.
Also it will be a load of your mind if you no longer have to worry about applications that are still open, you get the picture.
And you will get better quality feedback if you can already rule out files in use being the cause of a failing backup/sync.

2. I don't mean renaming, i would create a folder in the same directory of the file that is to be replaced and then move that (old) file to that folder. Then copy the new file.
You could name the folder something like "$Toucan Backup 2008-03-02 15.26.23".
Dsynchronize uses this method.
SyncBackSE uses that method also, only SyncBackSE calls it versioning. With SyncBackSE you can also specify wether you want the backups to only be made on the source, the destination or both.

3. Maybe you could be inspired by Dsynchronize, it has this real-time synchronization. Is is not truely real-time though, there is an interval of only 10 seconds in between the scans.

4. I have tried the equalize function but that did not work, the file that i deleted from the source was copied back again from the destination.
Just to make sure that we understand eachother on what true bi-directional synchronization means:

To explain in a nutshell:
If Toucan would be able to do true bi-directional synchronization, then if i would delete a file from the source, it will also delete the file from the destination.

If it is not true bi-directional synchronization, then toucan does not compare all the files that were present in the previous sync cycle with the files that are present just before the second sync cycle starts.
Only after comparison Toucan would find out that a file was deleted in the source and will delete the file in the destination also.
So you will have to build some kind of file list into Toucan and have it do a scan before synchronisation, then comparison the file list with the results of the filescan and then take action.

The real-time (bi-directional) sync from Dsynchronize can do this.
The same goes for SyncBackSE and every other serious sync tool.

5. Ok.
6. Totally agree, point 4 is way more important
7. Ah that's ok.
8. This is great, can't wait for that, it's simple but so very effective in my opinion
9. Yes, that is exactly what i mean. The only sync app that i know of that actually can do this without a server component is BestSync http://www.risefly.com/foldersynceng.htm

10. I have one more feature request, also low priority:
Bandwidth control. So that you can define a limit to the tranfer speed (for example 1 mb/sec).

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March 4, 2008 - 4:58am
(Reply to #12)
Jimbo
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VSS does NOT necessarily give good backups

VSS only guarantees consistent data will be captured when the applications with open locked files are "VSS Writers" - This means Exchange Server, SQL Server, and other big database apps. It does not mean that you'll get a usable copy of any other file that happens to be locked. You might.... but you might not... and that's not really my idea of a backup.

If you're backing up important data, you really need to -know- that it is good, or -know- that it is bad.

Here is a technet article about VSS and how it works - http://technet2.microsoft.com/windowsserver/en/library/2b0d2457-b7d8-42c...

And here is a quote from the article

If the computer has no applications that are enabled for the Volume Shadow Copy Service, the data in a shadow copy is considered to be in a “crash consistent” state. All files that were open will still exist, but are not guaranteed to be free of incomplete I/O operations or data corruption.

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March 9, 2008 - 1:22pm
(Reply to #13)
ruudboek
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I know from handson

I know from handson experience that VSS works just fine.
It is THE method for the windows platform to backup files that are in use.
There are so many rock solid applications that take use of VSS, also for other things then just database backup.

VSS is so good, that it is even being used by a whole range of imaging applications to create an image of the whole operating system drive while in windows (hot backup).
Just to name a few: Acronis true image, Paragon drive backup, Driveimg XML, etc.
Surely they can't all be wrong?

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March 10, 2008 - 10:12am
(Reply to #14)
Jimbo
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Yes, it works

It does exactly what it says it will do - it makes a copy of whatever happens to be on disk at the time, which is MUCH better than no copy at all, and still no &$(%£ use whatsoever if it does happen to be inconsistent.

Big-end database orientated apps such as the ones I mention hook into VSS and ensure that there is a consistent checkpoint written to disk, so you can guarantee the state of the data.

I'd be surprised if anyone was using Toucan to backup such beasts though. It is far more likely that Toucan is backing up small stuff, which means that you'll get -something- that may or may not be useful.

When you finish using a PC, do you shut it down cleanly, or just pull the lead out of the wall... Relying on VSS for backups of apps that are not registered with it as VSS writers is the same as just pulling the plug out of the wall. Most times, you'll get away with it, but sometimes you won't. If your data is important enough to you, then it is safer to close the apps before you run your backup.

I'm not saying that VSS support wouldn't be useful - like I said, some copy of the file is better than none. I'm just trying to make sure that people know that it isn't some magic answer, and that it isn't an equivalent of shutting the apps down cleanly so you can back up the in-use files.

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August 21, 2008 - 8:14pm
ruudboek
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Bi-directional support still planned for version 2.1?

I am looking at proper bi-directional syncing in v2.1 probably, as there are already lots of new things that are coming in v2.

Now that version 2.0 is out, do you still plan to implement true bi-directional support in version 2.1 and implement shadow volume copy?
I'm really kinda looking forward to that, because it would enable me to finally replace my slow synctoy+cobian combo with toucan.

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August 29, 2008 - 8:09am
(Reply to #16)
Steve Lamerton
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Yes

these are still on the todo list Smile

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