First of all sorry if this is way off topic.
I'd like to learn a programming language. Also I have a couple of ideas for simple Windows programs so I thought it would be a good way to use them to learn programming. So what would you suggest I start learning?
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something that uses a big visual interface like VB.net 2008 (cant be portable and requires .net) or delphi. if you are trying to just start programming, you will want to start with html or css because they are more basic.
and please move this to the off topic forums
Zoop
How about Ruby?
That would be an easy one, but you should start off at least for now with a simple language, like sergentsiler said, cause once you acquire skills from one, it will make it easier to understand another more complex one. Unless you already know how most program languages work, then go for a more complex one. you could also try autohotkey. Also it just depends what you are planning on making, if u know what it is right now, then maybe you should say what it is(dont worry nobody will steal ur idea) so somebody can recommend the language that best suites your needs.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
Mahatma Gandhi,
Indian political and spiritual leader (1869 - 1948)
Basically I've been wanting to learn programming for some time because it interests me and for practical reasons as well - to create some more simple applications for my own use. I've decided to go with Ruby as I've read it's simple and so far I'm on Chapter 5 on this manual http://pine.fm/LearnToProgram and it seems much more plain than Perl which my dad uses and has been helping me out with some stuff and I have some pretty basic knowledge behind the logic of programming.
As for what I currently have in mind - first I want to create a portable and possibly encrypt-able version of TypeItIn http://www.wavget.com/typeitin.html - a very useful tool for me, which however is pretty outdated. It's pretty much a set of buttons that execute macros. The other idea I have is a more basic and again portable version of EverNote... I like the idea behind it but it's too complicated for what I need... and Notepad is too plain for keeping my ideas/notes organized, so I have something else in mind. Obviously this one would be more complex as it will involved a database and some other features.
So again - the main reason is I really want to learn programming... for fun, for everyday use. If it was that much for the programs I'd just get someone to do them for me. And I also have some experience in developing software - I haven't actually programmed any but I've been coming up with the logic behind it... I mean I kinda know how Perl "thinks" and "reads" if that makes any sense at all.
That sounds awesome, hope you can do what you want to, and remember to not limit yourself to one language, try many and you will be able to do a lot more complex things once you get better.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
Mahatma Gandhi,
Indian political and spiritual leader (1869 - 1948)
Thanks man! Now, I'll have someone to bug with my programming questions... LOL
How about LISP
(. (Poor joke))
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Asimov
i wouldn't reccomend VB.Net as a first time language. although VB.Net is free, VB6 is a lot easier to learn (but it costs money). you could try ruby, python or perl.
But there’s no sense crying over every mistake,
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
VB6 also isn't supported anymore; it's obsolete. I'd also like to know where one would buy a copy... basically the only way to get it would be to pirate it.
i got my VB6 enterprise edition of eBay.
But there’s no sense crying over every mistake,
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
Dijkstra:
It is practically impossible to teach good programming style to students that have had prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.
I totally agree with him here. The same applies to some other languages like NSIS too.
Well, VB is better than BASIC, but not by much.
Delphi: thumbs up. This a an evolution of a language designed for educational purposes.
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Asimov
My first programming language was BASICA and then later QuickBasic, and I'm just fine (therefore not "mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration"). I've received a fair number of compliments on the readability of my code, too... and I don't use comments!
... and I don't use comments!
Indeed a great practice.
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Asimov
I'm commenting alot on my IntelliLuanch code. Its readable, but, I still want to make a note as to my logic for why I did that.
I don't really trust myself
Too many lonely hearts in the real world
Too many bridges you can burn
Too many tables you can't turn
Don't wanna live my life in the real world
This was sarcastic.
I'd say that they are worth 80-90% of code's readability.
When you have a lot of unknown code to browse, names often mean nothing, you find the part you need mostly by reading comments.
When you're tired even simple code becomes hard to understand, good description helps a lot.
When coding difficult things, comments are a must, even the most readable naming and code structure may not be enough to make another developer understand it.
How about constants, especially data tables? Names are not enough to understand i.e. state map of an automata.
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Asimov
I don't know, I've always found comments to bloat the codebase and for me, at least, they make it more difficult to follow simply because of the bloat. When programming, I "think in code" I guess, so comments actually tend to do me more harm than good.
I'm weird, what can I say?
Either way, I believe it says something that I've received compliments on the readability of uncommented code, doesn't it?
I'm using comments in IntelliLuanch for 2 reasons:
1. its horribly complex. I want to note to myself what the HECK I was thinking when I wrote that.
2. I'm intended for the code to get hacked up by other. That way, they know what the heck I was thinking when I wrote that code.
Yes, it would say something about the readability if you don't comment it. Course, I'd have no clue what you were doing in that code. Unless its NSIS.
Too many lonely hearts in the real world
Too many bridges you can burn
Too many tables you can't turn
Don't wanna live my life in the real world
Would you mind providing some links to reference material you think teaches good programming style? I'm moving on to C++. I'm reading some books now, but I'm always looking for more input. Better to start off right.
Thinking in C++. I don't know anything better about the language.
Style..I don't know any books that are dedicated to the topic.
Actually I would also like to find something about it, I'm pretty sure that my style is far from perfect, I'm a self learner here.
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Asimov
Coincidence...I'm reading Thinking in C++ currently
I just finished the Thinking in C primer seminar (to pick up some basics I didn't learn on my own), and I've started on volume 1. I'd say I knew 75-80% of the primer already.
I think that I should explain my point and now I've got some more time.
I base my comment on experience of 5 professional programmers that I know very well and few dozens that I don't know personally, I've only seen their code.
There are 2 main problems with BASIC programmers:
They write in non structured way. When did you think about using goto for the last time? It's the canonical example. The only reasonable use for goto is jumping out of nested loops...if you cannot design it better. Global variables are common too.
They try to develop as quickly as possible. The most common examples are using short names, lack of comments, skipping code formatting. Also, when having different ways of doing the same thing they tend to choose the shortest one, not the most readable that works fast enough.
They can learn things like naming, commenting, formatting, using loops and functions...and they usually do few months after starting to participate in their first big project.
But it's hard to change the way you think about algorithms. None of the 5 managed to do it.
I still use global variables, though greatly reduced amount of them (It was Pascal, not BASIC in my case). I still think with procedures, not objects.
A friend of mine that started with C# can't get used to cleaning after himself in C++. And often runs out of memory.
And the 3 people that started with BASIC...you can tell this by seeing their C++/Java code. Really.
Therefore I say that it's very important to choose the starting language wisely. I think that the best choice is Delphi or C++ with the use of objects (Delphi is easier for the beginners IMO). Or Pascal, but soon to be changed by something object oriented.
I don't know Python, but the fact that it forces code formatting suggests that it might be a very good option too.
For 100% noobs and kids I'd recommend logo. It's not a programming language but a language that teaches algorithmic thinking.
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Asimov
And how about Ruby?
I don't know it.
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Asimov
Only the original BASIC with line numbers was unstructured. More modern implementations (QuickBasic, VB, etc.) are structured.
Anyway, as stated I started in BASICA and it's been years since goto has ever even entered my mind when trying to solve a problem. I realize I may be the exception here, but you really can't generalize that BASIC warps programmer mentality beyond repair.
I know, VB.NET is even object oriented, but these are just afterthoughts, BASIC was meant to be
1. Simple
2. Concise
It's grammar is very loose and leaves too much space for newbies.
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Asimov
There's a nice, cross-platform BASIC dialect known as REALbasic - it's on the pricey side ($100 for a single-platform license), but it's high-quality and object-oriented out-of-the-box.
(btw, just a suggestion - if you go with RB, use version 2008r5.1. The 2009 releases have been bad, and getting worse...)
(Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with REAL Software in any way, just a happy RB user)
"The question I would like to know, is the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything. All we know about it is that the Answer is Forty-two, which is a little aggravating."
or you could use the open-source FreeBASIC platform which is cross platform too
your friendly neighbourhood moderator Zach Thibeau
IMHO, FreeBASIC isn't all that good... it seem to be a glorified QuickBASIC. REALbasic more goodies, including Mac support, a real RAD IDE (for those who don't know what that means: Rapid Application Development Integrated Design Environment, a long and complex way of saying you can drag-and-drop controls into their places, code more quickly, and have fun doing it all :P), "out-of-the-box" object-oriented programming (RB, by its very design, encourages OOP; you could have a non-structured program, but it would be difficult to make)
Anyway, sorry for the long thread hijack, I'm just addicted to RB...
Mods: if I'm out of order, feel free to delete my post.
"The question I would like to know, is the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything. All we know about it is that the Answer is Forty-two, which is a little aggravating."
lol well there is a rad for freebasic too called fbide, imho the best free open-source alternative to basic programming thats all I was suggesting :P, I'm not saying it's better.
your friendly neighbourhood moderator Zach Thibeau
Lisp is no joke man.
FBSL is another basic like language with OOP, has a RAD IDE also. Not open source, but freeware.