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What do you do when you can't safely remove?

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Stevoisiak
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What do you do when you can't safely remove?

Sometimes, it seems like when there is nothing running, you can't remove the drive safely for some reason, even if it's been inactive for a few minutes. This is especially true when running portable applications. When on a non-admin PC, you cant Ctrl-Alt-Delete to see that FireFox didn't close when it was supposed to, or use Unlocker to remove the drive. And the menu can't tell you what apps are running.

So my question is, what do you do when you can't safely remove your drive?

Edit: Wow. More responces than I thought.

Jimbo
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either

risk it and unplug

or reboot.

though generally I'm at machines where I have admin access, so I can use process explorer, unlocker, etc, so it is quite rare for me.

Ed_P
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I agree, reboot

On one machine I found the problem to be the machine's firewall. Once an app or file was accessed on the USB stick the machine's firewall would add the USB drive to it's security watch list and the drive could never be safely removed.

Other security sw could cause the same situation I'm sure.

To be 100% safe, reboot, removing the USB stick when the light goes out and the screeen goes blank. Other than that, wait a couple of minutes then take a chance and remove the stick.

Ed

gluxon
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Eject USB Google for

EJECT USB

Google for EjectUSB Smile

digitxp
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I'll do it.

Insert original signature here with Greasemonkey Script.

notsure
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Yes!

I had a friend introduce me to that site a few months ago-Awesome site!!

gluxon
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Jerk

Jerk Blum

It's EjectUSB not Eject USB Blum

jamvaru
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really!

really! Bad Bad

i use eject usb... sometimes it doesn't work, but mostly it does. At the least it will ensure there is minimal danger, even if it never completes its task. It shuts down all programs running from the usb, which means all data is safe. (i guess :))

[ioiops: it is EjectUSB! Bad :barf:}

;>jamvaru

LinkSlayer64
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Ctrl+Shift+Esc

Ctrl+Shift+Esc Opens task manager...just check the processes...even on non-admin I can always do this.

"Video games are bad for you? That's what they said about Rock'n'Roll." -Shigeru Miyamoto

jamvaru
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I just tried it

didn't work. Am using school computer.

;>jamvaru

LinkSlayer64
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Strict

your admins are real tightwads

"Video games are bad for you? That's what they said about Rock'n'Roll." -Shigeru Miyamoto

nroach
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duh....

I Got Busted for having music on my profile.... i just told them it was my U3 drive and that i wasn't using wmp to import the music from my PA.C drive.....
Back then they didn't allow them but now they do. And best of all, I Can run GIMP portable!!!

**-- No comment --**!!

Chris Morgan
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Process Explorer

Process Explorer is the one I use (other than its EULA acceptance registry entry it doesn't leave anything behind). Ctrl+F, X:\, Enter. Wait for a small time... then you get the list of things with handles open on it (and processes running from it). Then you can delete the handles if you feel like it. I used to find that a regular culprit was TSVNCache.exe, the TortoiseSVN cache; it's safe to terminate.

(See the table at the Unlocker site for a comparison of some similar bits of software.)

I am a Christian and a developer and moderator here.

“A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.” – Proverbs 15:1

Stevoisiak
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Admin?

I've been considering portable task managing software.

Do I need to be an admin to use this?

Simplifying daily life through technology

Chris Morgan
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No

You'll need to agree to the EULA on every new computer and that creates a key in the registry but other than that it doesn't leave anything behind.

I am a Christian and a developer and moderator here.

“A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.” – Proverbs 15:1

Dommix
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I use PortableApps especially

I use PortableApps especially in school, and most times I just shut down the computer, even if this problem doesn't appear.

hevadela
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U3

look at u3 That has a own removal tool built in!

digitxp
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-

One of the very few high points of U3, but of course it also encourages unsafe removals :(.

Insert original signature here with Greasemonkey Script.

Ed_P
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It's a pc option not a USB option

A key to whether a USB stick can be safely removed is how the drive is configured in Windows.

If it is configured for Optimize for quick removal, which is the default setting, there is no write caching and the device can be safely removed without using the Safe Removal icon.

If the setting on the pc has been changed to Optimize for Performance, which increases the writing performance to slow USB sticks, unsafe removal of the stick can be disasterous for the file structure on the stick. If Safe Removal doesn't work rebooting is the only safe option.

Ed

ottosykora
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unfortunately

not all is so simple under windows. it depends on file system too.

http://www.uwe-sieber.de/usbstick_e.html

Otto Sykora
Basel, Switzerland

Ed_P
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I'm not aware of any new

I'm not aware of any new sticks using a format other than FAT. People who convert them to another format on their own should be aware of the associated risks they assume.

Ed

ottosykora
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optimize on fat

for quick removal or performance is not much of use on fat. I think someone at MS forget to gray out this settings for removable fat drives in the GUI.
They will have no function there anyway.

Just now I have here only my old w2k laptop, and here surprise, this settings are grayed out.

Otto Sykora
Basel, Switzerland

jamvaru
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windows settings

how can we access these settings on a secured pc?

is fat32 safer in this regard than ntfs?

;>jamvaru

ottosykora
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admin pw

would be needed to attempt to change some settings probably if you have just restricted account, how to obtain it is different story...

>is fat32 safer in this regard than ntfs?

Otto Sykora
Basel, Switzerland

jamvaru
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journaling

meaning, ntfs journals, so does that make it more unsafe than fat32, as in unrecoverable file system type of damage?

If the setting we are referring to is grayed out with fat (16?) does it still show what it is set at? optimized for speed or quick removal? are fat 16 drives automatically optimized for quick removal?

What is the speed difference between these two settings?

Is there a 3rd party program that can access such settings in a way that bypasses admin security? It is after all MY drive, not the admins, and this setting only affects me. But, let me see real quick... da da da da... da da da...

here at the Denver, CO public library the setting is grayed out and it is set for performance... i have to 1. download a file, 2. type e:\downloads in the save box, 3. right click on a folder, 4. select explore... then i can right click on the drive and select properties...

anyway... i just bought a new laptop, it is in alaska having flown from china, bangkok... wow! soon.. (and it went back in time, too! [crossing the day line, backwards])

;>jamvaru

ottosykora
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@jamvaru

>meaning, ntfs journals, so does that make it more unsafe than fat32, as in unrecoverable file system type of damage?If the setting we are referring to is grayed out with fat (16?) does it still show what it is set at? optimized for speed or quick removal? are fat 16 drives automatically optimized for quick removal?What is the speed difference between these two settings?Is there a 3rd party program that can access such settings in a way that bypasses admin security?

Otto Sykora
Basel, Switzerland

Jimbo
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"safety"

OK, there are a lot of distinct but related issues here

Safety and stability
The existence of the journal in NTFS means that it is better able to cope with corruption and repair it with minimal data loss. This means that if you do suffer from corruption, NTFS is more likely only to lose the files that were involved, whereas FAT can lose the entire drive. The flipside of this is that NTFS involves more writes, meaning more wear on the drive, and also due to the way it works, it is more likely to leave a drive locked and not able to be safely removed, so there is more chance that you will end up with an uncleanly dismounted filesystem.

Performance
On Windows XP and up, for removable drives formatted with FAT, it is not possible to enable write-caching. Windows completely ignores the optimise for performance/extraction setting, and always disables write caching for removable FAT drives. Since by default Windows will not allow you to format a removable drive as NTFS (only FAT), it would seem that they feel you should stick with FAT.

In general, for real-world usage as opposed to synthetic benchmarking, the performance gain from most write caching on a USB flash drive is small, anyway. All that the caching saves you is that multiple overwrites of the same data are bundled up and committed as a single write, so if you're copying 10,000 tiny files, then you'll see a huge difference. If you're saving a 200MB document, then you still have to write 200MB to the drive, and saving 8KB of rewrites to the directory structures is not going to really make a lot of difference.

Causes of corruption
A filesystem becomes corrupted in this context when an operation by the computer isn't finished. This can be because it is actively in-progress when you yank the drive out, or because the computer was caching, and decided that since it was busy, it paused the operation part way though, during which pause you pulled the drive.

A file becomes corrupted in this context because it was still open and in use at the time you pulled the drive. This means that the application had opened it, changed some parts, but would still have some changes to make to it before it commits further updates. Because of this, the file is in an inconsistent state, and may not be openable in future.

Either of these - an application having a file open, or the OS having uncomitted writes, will give the "unable to eject" message. This is why it is essential to close all programs before ejecting the drive.

Sadly, there are other causes of the unable to eject message, the most common one of which seems to be when a non-portable application has a directory on the drive locked, usually as its working directory.

As an example of this, if you run a command prompt, create a new directory, cd into it, and then try to delete the directory, you will get a permission denied error since the cmd.exe has it as its working directory.

Windows explorer has a nasty habit of moving its working directory at odd times into places that it is looking, or launching, or whatever, which can leave it with an open handle on the removable drive, which the only way to cleanly close is to exit explorer. Since the only "official" way to exit explorer is to shutdown the system, that is why that is a last resort method. What is most frustrating is that if the only thing with a handle open on the drive is something like explorer with a directory open, then it is actually safe to remove, but unless you can be certain, then you shouldn't risk it. That is where apps like unlocker or process explorer can help out, since they can interrogate all the running processes to see which of them has an open handle on the drive, and what it is.

ottosykora
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nice text

we should place it into some sort of wiki for future questions on that subject.

Otto Sykora
Basel, Switzerland

jamvaru
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portableapps.wikia.com

portableapps.wikia.com

i just did a sort of cardboard storefront of a wiki, though it could certainly be used.

it seems PA wants to do a local wiki, which is nice, but no date as of yet.

wikia is rather ad-ridden, but otherwise decent.

another alternative is wikidot, less ads but less like wikipedia, not as easy to browse, not as high profile

;>jamvaru

hevadela
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No

no it doesn't cause it unloads all processes. The pc stopps with sending cause the drive blocks. You can delete it safely. And If i have PA still running it doesn't work and it can't be blocked on school pc's. Possible It must be added to PA. I think that's a good idea

jamvaru
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ntfs v. fat32

now i am unsure, I am actually about, er, just did, reformat my drive using fat32, the device defaults, and am going to use toucan to reup my data.

but, if fat32 will completely crash and ntfs will only lose SOME files or folders, then it makes sense to use ntfs format.

however, there is more assurance of being able to safely remove with fat32, which is annoying.

any horror stories related to safe removal and losing entire stick (or partial loss with ntfs)?

i guess i am going with fat32 for the time being. ntfs has been ok to use, but perhaps the journaling makes the drive slower (?) and the unreliability of safe-remove is quite annoying.

my question regarding speed was about the setting (in windows) of performance v. quick-removal... which you have settled as being moot with fat32, though i am still unsure about ntfs, and unsure in general.

thanks

;>jamvaru

Jimbo
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use FAT32

When I said that Fat could trash the whole drive, I meant it as a technical possibility, rather than a strong likelihood.

In reality, I've been using multiple portable devices for years now, and I've regularly had to pull a drive that would not safely remove, but, with due care and attention I've never so much as lost a single file.

My flash drive tends to alternate between NTFS and FAT32 every 65 months.

On FAT I bemoan the lack of large files, and the fact that the timestamps are less accurate than my NTFS primary system drive, which causes minor issues with syncing.

On NTFS I bemoan the fact that the drive locks and won't safely remove about one time in three, and I have to fire up process explorer and check what has files open. (almost always the system has the meta-data open or explorer has a directory open). Either way, I run the sysinternals sync app a couple of times, then just pull the drive once it stops flashing.

If you are sensible, make sure that you have definitely closed down all the apps, and make sure that you wait until several seconds after the activity light on the drive has stopped flickering, and only pull the drive then, you'll be fine.

Pretty much every "help, XYZ application won't work anymore because my drive is corrupt" thread here is caused by people pulling the drive while XYZ app was still running and was still saving its data. The second most common cause is hardware failure.

Flash drives take a beating, the fragile ones break mechanically. I have two mechanically failed drives on my desk here (circuit board tracks breaking or flash chips coming off). I have a total of 8 drives in easy reach, and am responsible for 60+ drives that I've handed out where I work, and so far I have never seen on wear out in the sense that the flash has run out of write cycles.

Coming back to the point, the only strong reason to use NTFS on a flash drive is if you need support for files bigger than 4GB. There is no real perceptible difference in performance, and provided you are careful with when you remove it, neither one should ever get corrupt anyway.

jamvaru
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fat32 works great

very fast 'safe remove'

no problems

speed is fine: 30r, 12w

;>jamvaru

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