Hello,
I really dig the focus on free portable applications here, and I've defiantly starting putting them to use on my flash drive, very nice to be able to bring some of these things with me!
I've run into a little issue though...
I decided to run a batch job on every ".dll" and ".exe" contained within the folder I "installed" my portable apps in, around 110~ executes and and 900~ dynamic links. I ran the entire job with "--ultra-brute" so I could get the maximum compression, and it worked great! In the end, I saved around 50mb across the 19 applications I installed and removed a lot of the "lag" I had when launching applications such as Firefox. Every application works fantastic, they launch quicker and on my Thinkpad here with a T9300, I managed to compress the 1000~ files in just a couple of hours work by splitting up the job of compressing the exe's to one CPU, and the dll's to another.
Certainly, saving space and providing improved usability to myself was not the issue. The issue is that when I try to run the applications from the launchers that are included, I get errors such as:
"Installer integrity check has failed. Common causes include incomplete download and damaged media. Contact the installer's author to obtain a new copy.
More Information at:
http://nsis.sf.net/NSIS_Error"
when using the "FirefoxPortable.exe". If I launch the program from the "app" folder though, it works flawlessly.
Is this "integrity check" that seems to be part of the launcher really necessary? Do I lose any modifications that allow the applications to run without touching the system, such as writing registry entries, but running them without the launcher?
Thanks in advance for any answers or other feedback!
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If you're not using the launcher, it's not the portable app, it's the regular one. That's why Firefox is so much faster, you're using your local profile, not the portable one.
We compress all the DLLs and EXEs using UPX already using NRV2E as it has the best balance of compression and not breaking stuff (plus brute takes a LONG time and will often only gain less than 1KB more). Apps life Firefox, Thunderbird and Sunbird we don't UPX compress due to our agreement with Mozilla (plus it prevents the auto-updater from being able to do partial updates). But all the others we do. We also compress the PYDs and recompress JARs and ZIPs.
You can not recompress the NSIS launchers. They check themselves for modifications so that if a virus were to infect them you'd immediately know. They're already compressed using LZMA compression on the included pieces.
So, you're fine not recompressing most apps since it won't save you any usable space. You can compress Firefox, Sunbird and Thunderbird if you want but it'll break auto-updates (which you shouldn't use right now due to a bug anyway). Just about your whole 50MB probably came from those 3 apps since we don't compress them. And don't compress the launchers.
Welcome to PortableApps.com.
Sometimes, the impossible can become possible, if you're awesome!
If you're not using the launcher, it's not the portable app, it's the regular one.
I know that you know, but your comment might be misleading. It applies only to some of PortableApps.com apps, like the mentioned Firefox.
https://portableapps.com/about/what_is_a_portable_app
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Asimov
It applies to all of them, except maybe Winmd5 cause this one doesnt have any settings.
Some wont leave stoff on the host if you dont use the launcher, but it still breaks the easy backup-tool built in the Suite and if you run it once without the launcher and then run it again with the launcher it wont find its settings.
Short answer is: yes you need the Launcher.
"What about Love?" - "Overrated. Biochemically no different than eating large quantities of chocolate." - Al Pacino in The Devils Advocate
Miranda and Sumatra too. I guess that more.
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Asimov
Sumatra has a settings file the launcher copies from the data folder to the Application folder and back after you close the program for easyer backup-ability.
And the launcher does some more:
-adjusting Sumatras language
-adjusting the drive letter in the "last used" file list
I dont know about Miranda but I guess its similar.
"What about Love?" - "Overrated. Biochemically no different than eating large quantities of chocolate." - Al Pacino in The Devils Advocate
So? How does it make it not portable? Please, tell precisely, which point of the definition mentions before is not fulfilled?
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Asimov
It is portable.
The end user just looses the additional user friendly behaviour provided by the Launcher. But it remains portable.
"What about Love?" - "Overrated. Biochemically no different than eating large quantities of chocolate." - Al Pacino in The Devils Advocate
It depends on your definition of portable. People use the following for their own definition of portable:
I'm guessing you're referring to #2 or #3 as there are many apps we package that fall into definition 2 (they leave files and/or registry entries behind and certain features break as you move between PCs). Most "portable software" sites subscribe to definition #2.
The PortableApps.com definition of "portable" is a bit more involved:
So, while an app may be "kinda" portable on its own, we don't consider it portable unless it meets the criteria listed above. And I wouldn't want to use a piece of software that claimed to be portable that didn't meet those criteria.
Sometimes, the impossible can become possible, if you're awesome!
So now you changed the definition just to be able to call them "kinda portable"?
Let me point out that Mozilla apps packed by PA.com do not fulfill this. They are not compressed. And miranda w/out launcher is exactly as portable as they are (w/launcher).
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Asimov
No, we're not changing the definition. There was no definition of "portable apps" until we started making them in the last several years. At PortableApps.com, we've always held to the above guidelines. It's fine that other sites list software that's partially portable but has some broken functionality and may leave things behind. Some people are happy with that and that's what fills their need. Personally, I expect a bit more from a piece of portable software.
Some people yell and scream and get all sorts of worked up when we take a piece of software that they consider already portable and package it in PortableApps.com Format. Miranda IM, for instance, is an app I'd call "kinda portable". It creates (or modifies) and leaves behind a registry key at HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Miranda on every PC you run it on with admin rights.
So, when I packaged it in PortableApps.com Format, I took care of backing up and restoring that key so the user doesn't need to worry about leaving it behind or messing up one on a PC that already has Miranda installed. I also bundled in both the ANSI and Unicode versions of Miranda and had the launcher automatically use the appropriate one based on the operating system the user is using (that way, if you just happen to encounter an old Win9x machine, it'll still work, though your Unicode plugins won't load). It's basically a "just in case fallback", but I think it's a handy one. Plus, since it's in PortableApps.com Format, it's easy to backup your settings since they're in the standard place (MirandaPortable\Data) and will be backed up by our easy-to-use backup utility. Not to mention the fact that an end user only needs to download and run the installer and it handles the work of finding an existing install of the PortableApps.com Platform and installing into it.
There will always be people that have different needs who are happy with portable software that has a couple features broken or leaves things behind. And there will always be people comfortable with manually configuring and moving things around to get them working and then manually configuring something to launch them later on. That's fine. And folks like that would probably like Mozilla Firefox, Portable Edition but have no need for Miranda IM Portable. And that's fine, too. We're not trying to be all things to all people. We're just trying to build the best, easiest-to-use, all-inclusive portable platform. Judging from our success in terms of download numbers, site traffic and publicity, I'd say we're doing a good job of it so far. And we're working to get even better.
Sometimes, the impossible can become possible, if you're awesome!
The definition in your previous post is highly different from the "what is a portable app" one, so how do you say that you're changing it?
About Miranda, first I thought that you're very wrong because I don't have this key.
But I have KEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\WoW64Node\Miranda, so you proved your point.
But unless I miss something here too, Sumatra PDF is portable up to the "what is a portable app". And I guess that the MD5 thing too. The same with DosBox, JKDefrag, KeePass, LBreakout2, Mines Perfect, PDFTK Builder, PNotes, Magnifying Glass, MPLayer too.
BTW I don't see Mozilla Firefox, Kinda Portable Edition in the beta forum yet, when are you going to change the name? I feel that some people might feel fibbed and leave the platform because of it being misnamed, I think that nobody here wants it.
Also, I guess that it's just a bug, but your command prompt isn't portable, even up to "what is a portable app". It misses the IMO most important settings - keys used for autocompletition.
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Asimov
Lighten up a bit buddy...It's not the end of the world that you and John have different definitions of portability.
And why would be have Mozilla Firefox Kinda Portable Edition? With the launcher, it IS portable. It's only w/o the launcher that some apps are "kind of portable"
The developer formerly known as ZGitRDun8705
First, where do you find me talking about my definition?
Second, it's not about definitions at all. It's about disregarding programs that are portable by themselves and deliberately lying to people that they are not.
And why would be have Mozilla Firefox Kinda Portable Edition? With the launcher, it IS portable.
It is not compressed->it is not portable up to the latest definition.
It's only w/o the launcher that some apps are "kind of portable"
Mozilla apps are kinda portable with launchers, because of the thing I mentioned about FF. Command prompt is kinda portable because of a bug. So basically: having PA.com doesn't always mean being portable.
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Asimov
We are not allowed to compress Mozilla products.
If we could, we would. It is a legal constraint.
You should let it go.
Things have got to get better, they can't get worse, or can they?
I know that you can't do this, but it doesn't make them fit the definition better.
I wouldn't be that prickly if I didn't suspect John to create this definition only to say that some portable programs don't fit it.
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Asimov
The definition of a portable app is more of an end-user one rather than a technically detailed one. The one I gave you above is our technically detailed version we have followed.
As for Miranda's registry key, that's it. For the unfamiliar reading along, it's because m2 is running a 64-bit version of Windows. This is where 32-bit software keeps its keys.
Sumatra PDF fits the 3rd definition, but its most recently used files list breaks as you move PCs. I like being able to easily get at PDFs on my drive I recently opened. So the Sumatra PDF Portable launcher updates the MRU for you. It also updates Sumatra PDF's language setting in sync with the next release of the PortableApps.com Platform (set the platform in German, Sumatra PDF is in German).
The other apps you mention all have similar updates. KeePass Portable allows you to automatically open your password file (which you can't do in regular KeePass when the path changes) as well as sync the language to the platform. JkDefrag Portable has an open source easy-to-use interface added which JkDefrag doesn't have and doesn't exist outside of JkDefrag Portable. LBreakout2 Portable also has the Data directory updates and fixes some issues with sound in LBreakout2. MPlayer we bundle in MPUI by default. The others are mostly updated to use the Data directory by default (some which won't, some only with a command line paramater). All are shrunk using our App Compactor which compresses DLLs, EXEs, PYDs, etc using UPX and recompresses ZIPs, JARs, etc using 7-Zip. WinMD5Sum is mainly just packaged for the convenience of less-technical users (there's no launcher or anything else, it's just WinMd5Sum in our installer for easy install) so they can check MD5 sums of downloaded files.
My reference to Mozilla Firefox, Portable Edition in my previous comment was due to the fact that Firefox is not easily portablizable on your own, so it would be useful to folks who think definition 2 or 3 is fine. But Miranda Portable would be unnecessary for them as they can configure Miranda to be portable by themselves (they understand the difference between ASCII and Unicode and what OSs they'll encounter and don't care about leaving a registry key behind). I was not saying that Mozilla Firefox, Portable Edition doesn't follow our definition. It does.
Our Command Prompt Portable is primarily to make it easy to bring up a command prompt from the menu. It checks the PC's COMSPEC environment variable and, if it doesn't exist, it figures out the correct path for both Windows 2000+ (using cmd.exe) and Windows 9x (using command.com) and automatically launches a user-configurable batch file with their settings (window title, foreground and background color, prompt, starting path on the portable device, included PATH with command line tools on your portable device, etc). I was debating including the registry update necessary to enable command auto-completion on Windows 2000 in the launcher but didn't at the time. It's going to be added into the next release along with some better integration with the platform.
In the end, crossing all our Ts and dotting our lower-case Js is part of the process. But so is ensuring that everything available all fits into our defined format so that it all works together easily, is easy to backup, easy to install, easy to upgrade, all without the end user needing to follow a different procedure for every single app they download (unzip this, move that, edit this config file, move this directory, install it locally and then copy this but not that). Our goal is to have it all "just work".
Sometimes, the impossible can become possible, if you're awesome!
Forget about the "kinda portable" definitions, they are out of topic. The point of this discussion is that you claim PA.com programs to not be portable w/out the launcher, so concentrate about "portable/not portable" up to both of your definitions and try to prove the latter.
For the scope of my statements in this topic:
"The 1st definition"= https://portableapps.com/about/what_is_a_portable_app
"The second one"= https://portableapps.com/node/15131#comment-94146
Sumatra PDF fits the 3rd definition, but its most recently used files list breaks as you move PCs. I like being able to easily get at PDFs on my drive I recently opened. So the Sumatra PDF Portable launcher updates the MRU for you.
It fits the first definition too. You didn't tell precisely, which point isn't covered, as I asked for, but I guess that you want to say that it doesn't keep it's settings. If it is so, then since when is MRU a setting? Since you implemented it, no more - no less. SumatraPDF Portable was portable w/out this, but SumatraPDF w/out launcher isn't now. Who are you trying to fool?
It also updates Sumatra PDF's language setting in sync with the next release of the PortableApps.com Platform (set the platform in German, Sumatra PDF is in German).
Could you stop this offtopic commercials?
The other apps you mention all have similar updates. KeePass Portable allows you to automatically open your password file (which you can't do in regular KeePass when the path changes) as well as sync the language to the platform. JkDefrag Portable has an open source easy-to-use interface added which JkDefrag doesn't have and doesn't exist outside of JkDefrag Portable. LBreakout2 Portable also has the Data directory updates and fixes some issues with sound in LBreakout2. MPlayer we bundle in MPUI by default. The others are mostly updated to use the Data directory by default (some which won't, some only with a command line paramater). All are shrunk using our App Compactor which compresses DLLs, EXEs, PYDs, etc using UPX and recompresses ZIPs, JARs, etc using 7-Zip. WinMD5Sum is mainly just packaged for the convenience of less-technical users (there's no launcher or anything else, it's just WinMd5Sum in our installer for easy install) so they can check MD5 sums of downloaded files.
Again, this comment is useless. I didn't ask what are The Great Advantages of PortableApps.com Versions. You told that programs you packaged are not portable w/out launchers. So prove it.
My reference to Mozilla Firefox, Portable Edition in my previous comment was due to the fact that Firefox is not easily portablizable on your own, so it would be useful to folks who think definition 2 or 3 is fine. But Miranda Portable would be unnecessary for them as they can configure Miranda to be portable by themselves (they understand the difference between ASCII and Unicode and what OSs they'll encounter and don't care about leaving a registry key behind).
Offtopic again. We're finished with Miranda, it's not portable w/out a launcher.
I was not saying that Mozilla Firefox, Portable Edition doesn't follow our definition. It does.
Let me quote the second definition:The application is compressed
Therefore "Firefox Portable" is not portable, and up to your terminology, it should be called "Firefox Kinda Portable".
Our Command Prompt Portable is primarily to make it easy to bring up a command prompt from the menu. It checks the PC's COMSPEC environment variable and, if it doesn't exist, it figures out the correct path for both Windows 2000+ (using cmd.exe) and Windows 9x (using command.com) and automatically launches a user-configurable batch file with their settings (window title, foreground and background color, prompt, starting path on the portable device, included PATH with command line tools on your portable device, etc).
Do you want to bore me to death?
I was debating including the registry update necessary to enable command auto-completion on Windows 2000 in the launcher but didn't at the time. It's going to be added into the next release along with some better integration with the platform.
OK
In the end, crossing all our Ts and dotting our lower-case Js is part of the process. But so is ensuring that everything available all fits into our defined format so that it all works together easily, is easy to backup, easy to install, easy to upgrade, all without the end user needing to follow a different procedure for every single app they download (unzip this, move that, edit this config file, move this directory, install it locally and then copy this but not that). Our goal is to have it all "just work".
Useless marketing speach again.
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Asimov
Are you enjoying yourself?
At this point I think you are just being argumentative
The view in IRC seems to be that at this point it's not even worth the bandwidth.
Tim
Things have got to get better, they can't get worse, or can they?
At no point did I state that other PortableApps.com apps are not portable without the launcher. I was answering the original poster's question about Firefox, specifically, as he had said he launched it directly and it was faster. I stated that "If you're not using the launcher, it's not the portable app, it's the regular one. That's why Firefox is so much faster, you're using your local profile, not the portable one." At no point did I claim that Miranda IM or Sumatra PDF or the other apps aren't portable without our launchers, so why do you seem to think that I did?
As for Firefox not being compressed, that was part of the licensing agreement with Mozilla. It was decided that it was better for the end user to not compress it as compressing it would break the partial update functionality (downloading a couple hundred KB for a point release as opposed to 7 or 8MB) and when they updated they'd wind up with an uncompressed version anyway. I didn't mean to imply compressing an app was required for it to be called portable (that's just plain silly), I was just saying that that's one of the things we do since it is helpful (less disk space used for the install and faster launch times off typical drives).
And what I stated is not marketing speak. Most users like things that are simple and straight forward. Having all the software here install and upgrade easily, the exact same way, with the data in the same place is a big time and frustration-saver. As I stated, there are plenty of tech-savvy folks like yourself that are fine doing manual configurations of some software to be portable (like Pidgin's multiple steps) but most users prefer things that just work.
Sometimes, the impossible can become possible, if you're awesome!
At no point did I state that other PortableApps.com apps are not portable without the launcher. I was answering the original poster's question about Firefox, specifically, as he had said he launched it directly and it was faster.
You started ( or maybe joined? ) the argument at the end of the branch from my statement that some PA.com apps are portable w/out launchers. You were discussing my points. So I guessed that you wanted to convince people that your launchers are what makes them portable.
. I didn't mean to imply compressing an app was required for it to be called portable
The PortableApps.com definition of "portable" is a bit more involved:
(...)
The application is compressed
Yes, and I didn't mean to suggest that your statement clearly told something else.
OK, I think that at last we've got the consensus:
PortableApps.com packs some programs that are portable w/out launchers.
I guess we can finish here.
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Asimov
auto drive changing can get a bit buggy. Like if you were to run FFP from your flash, copy it to your PC so that you can temporarily use it there for the next couple days while you drive arrives, and move it to that drive you'd find that quite a few paths are now pointing to G:\Documents and Settings\%USERNAME%\
A little too portable ;).
Insert original signature here with Greasemonkey Script.
The launchers (written in NSIS - an installer script language) calculate a checksum of the data inside to ensure a non-corrupt installation. UPX changes the data and therefore the checksum changes, making the installer think it's corrupt. You will need original copies of the launchers (you cannot get back bit-exact copies from any w32 executable compressed by UPX; see the URL at the bottom for info). Don't use UPX on installers or any other program that maintains an internal checksum (they're usually compressed anyway). Also, UPX breaks the autoupdate feature of Fx and TB, so don't compress those binaries. If you do decide to UPX them, you cannot distribute them.
[shameless plug]
I have a project that works around this; see URL 2.
[/shameless plug]
BTW, --ultra-brute is usually unnecessary and a waste of time. --best and --all-methods are quite sufficient. You could probably get away with just --best. --ultra-brute doesn't increase compression, but rather tries all algorithms and options (and it rarely ever picks one outside of those in --all-methods).
1: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1758618&group_i...
2: https://portableapps.com/node/9805
edit: I see John beat me to it.
Vintage!
BTW, --ultra-brute is usually unnecessary and a waste of time. --best and --all-methods are quite sufficient. You could probably get away with just --best. --ultra-brute doesn't increase compression, but rather tries all algorithms and options (and it rarely ever picks one outside of those in --all-methods).
..And sometimes one of these options appear to work better than a standard one, which results in better compression. I also think that it's a wast of time though.
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Asimov
As mentioned before, launchers are set to check whether they are modified. But they are open source, so you can modify them yourself or find somebody to do it for you.
Everything you need to open the source file, find a line like
(I'm not sure if it's exactly like this), change "on" to "off" and recompile.
What you gain:
-You can modify .exes however you want to. UPX, change icons, change version information etc. The last 2 things can be done with keping CRC, but reqire recompilation...not comfortable.
What you loose:
-You loose a "Hello I just installed a virus on your computer" message. If launcher catches a virus, it will infect your PC as well, but will do it silently. IMO it's not a big drawback...
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Asimov