listless - The next time you direct your abusive attitude toward someone on this forum you will receive a one month suspension to your account. You've been warned before and you've chosen to ignore those warnings. I am not a fan of having to police forum conduct, but acting like this toward a developer of a third party app who took the time to join and post in this forum is inexcusable. Several people have already contacted me about your attitude and it is causing people to not want to participate in the forums. Enough is enough.
If you are incapable of contributing to a meaningful conversation to help move our products forward, then you are not welcome here. Constant sarcasm, insults, "I know better than you"-style remarks and the like drag EVERYONE here down and interfere with our ability to develop and support our software.
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I'm not trying to be a kind of "online-Voltaire", but...
One of the cornerstones of opensource is that everyone can be have their say. Engaging with people - even if you don't agree with them is one of the defining features of being open.
By beginning to censor the forum, even a little, by banning certain people we disagree with (we're not even talking SPAM here!), we're looking at the thin end of the wedge wrt only permitting posts that give praise for things - NOT a good idea, and one which gives a wholely misleading impression of the system.
Nobody is prevented from posting an online followup (where appropriate) - setting the record straight - when complete garbage is posted.
I belive a better solution is available, rather than banning users.
If people have been complaining about this user, why can't we upgrade/tweak the forum code to allow users a killfile?
This is trivial to do - create a simple table in the database with two fields "user_id" and "filter_user_id" fields. In the source which generates the HTML to display a thread's content, just include a quick check to replace the text posted by user "filter_user_id" with the string "[FILTERED OUT]" when viewed by user user_id. After that, it's just a straightforward form to add and remove people from this list.
Not rocket science!
If needed, I'd even be happy to make the changes myself! (Though that would require giving me a level of access to the system I somewhat doubt I'll get...)
(Incidently, if this user is to be banned - can we have a better justification (i.e. example) than the link posted? This shouldn't be difficult to do if listless is being really abusive, but the link posted is one where it's very difficult to see what his post was in reply to (due to the way the forum software handles threading). This makes it very hard to see what context his post was in relation to - making it difficult to judge whether a ban would be reasonable or not)
We are not banning him because we disagree with him. We are banning him because he is rude and crass.
You're a member, you read his past logs and you can read what he said. I stand by John on this one.
Too many lonely hearts in the real world
Too many bridges you can burn
Too many tables you can't turn
Don't wanna live my life in the real world
Open source does not mean free for all. Nor does it mean everyone gets their say no matter what. In online forums it comes down to a choice. You get to choose between one user who is being annoying, rude, inconsiderate, condescending to developers and support personnel and to new users. Or to choose a forum where new users and outside developers of third party tools (like ThunderBrowse) feel welcome. You can't have both because the first chases away the second and makes them feel unwelcome.
Implementing filters is not an answer, since new users and guests who are thinking of joining will still see the user. Which means he's still chasing people away and making people think twice about joining.
And disagreeing doesn't mean being insulting. You can have a disagreement without name-calling, rudeness, constant sarcasm, etc. Many of the core app developers here have differing opinions on platform direction, launcher implementation and many other issues. The difference is that we have a reasonable, logical discussion about it as adults. Disagreements don't have to turn into proof of John Gabriel's Internet F**kwad Theory.
There is no right to be an ass in these forums. There is no right to harass other users. There is no right to be disrespectful to developers. In short, free doesn't mean free to be disruptive. It means free to contribute in a meaningful manner.
Being a participant in any forum is a privilege, not a right. It's a privilege that comes with certain responsibilities that are very clearly and simply outlined in the forum guidelines. It says, among other things:
The guidelines are very simple. Play nice or leave.
Sometimes, the impossible can become possible, if you're awesome!
You're right. Open source by definition means you've got the source code, a licence to use it in a certain way, and that's your lot.
However, the open source community represents and means a lot more than that.
I believe if someone's being an idiot, don't ban them - BE CONSTRUCTIVE! Show why they're wrong to post "offensive" material. Help them. Educate them - bring them into the fold!
An analogy is trying to sweeping the garbage under the carpet, hoping noone will notice the bulge and stench - instead of putting up an open rebuttal saying "I think this viewpoint is wrong" and most importantly "and this is why I think it's wrong"
This gives a MUCH more favourable view what goes on on the forum. Just look at the alternative! This thread is a beautiful example - anyone looking at the forum this afternoon would see one post by John, right at the top of the list saying "WARNING! CRAP POSTED HERE! WE'RE GONNA BAN SOMEONE!" - with a reference to a post which really had no context easily available to identify what really went on - what the posting was in reply to.
(Note to John: That paragraph isn't trying to pick on you John - you just happened to be the one who posted it; I'd say the same whoever posted it)
Ironically, by discussing this issue, we're doing exactly what I advocate - there's a problem, let's be open about it, discuss it, address it head-on, and resolve it!
Incidently, surely this could have been better resolved though by a polite email to the individual in question, rather than a thrashing in a public forum?!
I don't see why anyone here has anything to fear from differing opinions/ways of expressing themselves - even if they find them offensive, if handled as per above.
If anyone thinking of joining wouldn't because a detractor putting forward an alternative view of the world - I don't think it's fair to misrepresent things by suggesting that everything's peachy, and there's no dissent/jerks. If someone posting crap - see above - show why they're wrong
Let people thinking of joining make up their own minds.
This is one of the key reasons opensource projects SUCCEEED - unlike commercial projects, we're NOT AFRAID to address critisism and conflict - OPENLY AND HONESTLY, as opposed to the "I don't like you; you're sacked - GET OUT!" view of a closed-source, commercial operation.
I'd certainly agree with you re the need for name-calling through.
Rudeness however is more debatable - what's "rude" in one society may not be in another - standards differ. (A "real world" example of this is the hand gesture for "OK", which in some countries is the same as calling someone). The internet is global in nature (something many Americans tend to forget!).
Broadly speading I'd agree with you there though; if the intent is to be deliberatly and intentionally rude - that's pretty universally "a bad thing".
Sarcasm OTOH is just a means of expression; typically expressing a point via reductio ad absurdum. I'd disagree with you on that one.
In an ironic twist, I would certainly back you to the hilt if it was someone spamming on the forum though. IMHO, spammers should be shot, decapitated, have their inners torn out by buzzards, and forced to eat nothing but pig-manure for the rest of their lives - but not for giving a viewpoint - even if it is a crass one.
Not intended offensivly - but that's pretty naive.
It's a PUBLIC FORUM. Like it or not.
Unless you go around censoring (or more politely, "moderating") all posts before they appear, the reality is that anyone banned can just as easily re-register and come back again.
That's the problem BIG, BIG, BIG PROBLEM with email spammers as well
(And another reason why filterlists would be more effective than banning)
Drupal has a IP ban feature, though John's never used it.
Yes, its a public forum, but its John's money that runs it. His choice, and yours. I think of it as the road. You screw up to many times, and you lose that privilege. How do you lose it? Being dangerous to others, via DUI, Speeding, running read lights, etc.
I've disagreed with John on things, but as long as I posted respectfully and politely, I have always been allowed to voice them. He's either posted a good rebuttal and I've agreed- or he's posted a good rebuttal and I still disagreed. Either way, in the 2 and half years I've been here, I think maybe one person has been banned. JTH doesn't just ban people because he feels like it.
As for filterlists, I wouldn't use it. I would just rather have the user gone. Its why as a op in the IRC room I never, ever ignore a person, just because they are a jerk. If they become a nuisance, I warm them, kick them, ban them. If I ignore them, then I have to take reports from everyone else, NOT judge (which is what I have to do) on what I have seen.
(Note: You could have just edited your lat post. So long as it hasn't been replied to, you can change it.)
Too many lonely hearts in the real world
Too many bridges you can burn
Too many tables you can't turn
Don't wanna live my life in the real world
@jamcomm
You are either misinformed or naive. This is NOT a public forum. It is own by an individual not a government. And even government owned places such as libraries and museums have RULES that must be followed or else you are asked to leave. And should you resist you are forceably removed.
This forum is a private forum where the ability to post requires you to register and accept a "code of conduct". If you can't accept the code you shouldn't register but if you do register and don't follow the code/rules you will be asked to leave.
Should you need to be banned, your name will be banned, your email address will be banned, your IP address will be banned and your ISP will be notified of your actions to have your account cancelled. So yes, you can re-register, once you find a way to access the Internet again.
Ed
Despite what many Americans seem to think, you can't have freedom without taking on the responsibility to use those freedoms within the bounds of propriety. Freedom of speech does not equal the right to be a jerk. Rights only extend so far as the responsibilities that go along with them. In this case, that responsibility is to conduct one's self in a decent, polite manner.
Thank you John for dealing with this. I'm sure it isn't fun for you or anyone involved.
Quamquam omniam nescio, nec nihil scio.
Is this your way of calling most Americans jerks? because that is how I read it.
Once you go portable...
That is not what he said.
Let's not start heating things up.
Tim
Things have got to get better, they can't get worse, or can they?
It may not be what he said directly but when i read it there seemed to be subtle underlying statement. It was not my intention to fuel the fire.
Once you go portable...
I'm an american. And I wasn't offended. In fact, I agreed with him.
Too many lonely hearts in the real world
Too many bridges you can burn
Too many tables you can't turn
Don't wanna live my life in the real world
I'm an American, and I didn't say "most". What I meant was that, most likely as an negative side-affect of what we like to call the "American Dream", where people look to get ahead by their own work and their own efforts, they feel that what they have is theirs to do with as they please, and that nobody should tell them what to do with it. I said "many" not "most", and it occurs to differing degrees. I'm proud to be an American, it's just sad when people have so much and just feel entitled to it, without giving back. No offense meant to anyone directly.
And yes, this is kind of off the topic, so like Tim Clark said, let's not heat this up.
Quamquam omniam nescio, nec nihil scio.
I would have thought his comment along the lines of "well let's get on it, shall we?" in regards to Platform development would have been a better example. That's the one comment he made that really stood out for me. While listless (and jamcomm) doesn't bother me (he adds a bit of color to the board), I definitely see where y'all have a problem, but you've got my support on this, for what it's worth.
While I disagree strongly with the "ignore list" feature jamcomm mentioned for a couple reasons, the most important thing to consider with forums is that somebody's board is like their online home, in a way. By posting here, you are a guest (or member, but it's just a term, it means the same thing). When you visit somebody's home, you respect them, and their rules. If they don't allow smoking in their home, you don't light up, even if you open a window. You just don't do it. And you certainly don't harass their other guests, or their family/VIP guests (analogy to developers). Online, it's the same. If you can't do that, for whatever reason, you should not go there, by your own choice. It's just the decent thing to do. If somebody can't do the decent and discreet thing and show themselves out, I am all for the homeowner, or admin, throwing the unruly guest out, or banning them. Really, we all post at their pleasure and they can throw us out or ban us for no reason, as they like, but then it changes who it looks bad on. This is different.
Free speech is one thing. You can start a blog or blog on MySpace and exercise your free speech, albeit to a certain point. But if "The Z" has taught us anything, it's that even illegal activities can go unpunished on a blog, at least for a time. The thing most Americans don't understand, it's not that you don't have freedom to be a jerk - that's just common sense - it's that the freedom isn't from censorship from private citizens or businesses (such as a website, or even an ISP, or the RIAA suing someone for sharing music), it's freedom from censorship from the government. Like all the people on political boards who keep bringing up the Presiden't skin color, whether they're for or against him. The First Amendment protects that speech (so long as the forum itself allows it, if it's not the person's own). Not being a jerk on a message board.
I guess it depends on how you view the open source community
As a group of people meeting in someone's private residence? If there's someone the house owner doesn't like (wrong color skin, wrong sex, too old, too thin - too "rude", too "offensive") - SLING THEM OUT! - and with the rest of the crowd chanting and jeering as they hit the pavement.
Or as a diverse community, meeting on common ground? Reflecting many different views, standards, an opinions - where passionate individuals can put their own opinions forward, safe in the knowledge that there may be dissent - but even when voices are raised, things will always be handled positivly and constructivly.
From a technical perspective, certainly the former is the case - as with any forum system. The owner is perfectly able to modify posts, misrepresent what people say, twist things around, delete any dissent, ban anyone with a differeing viewpoint.
But as a community, I believe NONE OF THE ABOVE actions are appropriate, and nor should they be carried out.
I'm not saying that the above happens here - just making the point that there is a big difference between what is technically possible, and what's right.
A public forum should be treated as just that - a public forum. If anyone wants to carry out any of the above actions - I'd suggest don't setup a public forum in the first place! Make it inaccessable to all except who know the funny handshake.
PortableApps.com is not the open source community. PortableApps.com is a website and forum run by John T. Haller. It happens to be a part of the open source community, but the community is much larger. I view the open source community the only reasonable way to view any community: as a body of varying ideas. On this note you may be led to believe that I'm agreeing with you. I'm not. You go raise hell on Mozilla's boards, or OpenOffice's or VLC's if they have them, they might warn or even ban you too. It's their prerogative. And it doesn't contradict open source as a whole.
You and listless are not the wrong skin color or gender, or too old or thin or whatever. You define yourselves by your attitudes. You're louder and he's got less respect for others. Personally, I don't mind either of you. But you come here and raise hell and get banned, you're not going to attract a lot of sympathy.
That fits, but you don't fit into a circle like that by being rude. I disagree with the majority of the active members here on a few counts. Still, I show respect, and every time I make a dissenting post, I make sure that my words are respectful while still getting my point across.
Ha ha. Funny that you should say that. I once heard a rumor about a band. It sounded fishy, so I did some investigating. Traced it back to a particular fan forum, and begin asking around. Within 24 hours, they did to me all the things you said. Made a second account, did some more discreet looking around. Turns out they started the hoax to get more people interested in the band. Don't ask me, it wasn't my idea, but that was the most I learned. And now 5 years later nobody's heard of the hoax, and those who have are well aware it was just a couple kids who started it. They lost their power over the fans. That isn't what's happening here.
Sure you are. And what is right? Do you think JTH and the other developers, who are trying to do nice things for everyone without getting paid, should just take this verbal abuse? Wouldn't you agree that it would be "right" for them to be paid for their efforts? Barring that, how about some respect? Is that so wrong?
You want the funny handshake? Here is your funny handshake.
PS - There's one thing that I've always wondered about your posts. All this bold, all this italic - Do you type all that code? Do you use BBCode or another plugin? Do you have a Greasemonkey script that adds the formatting options somehow? I have such a thing for MySpace at home, but I could find no such thing for here on UserScripts.org. I use BBCode for formatting here, but I would not take the time to do as much as you do. And, it's got me curious.
I think you're mistaken on how public forums work. Public forums, like public restaurants, movie theaters and community groups are open to the public. Anyone is free to join who wishes to eat, watch a movie or has an interest in the topic. However, when one customer or member is disruptive to the experience and prevents other customers from enjoying their meal, other viewers from watching the movie or other community members from being able to effectively organize, a customer or member can be asked to leave.
Every site you join has terms of service that spell out how you're supposed to conduct yourself. If you don't agree with them, don't join. Period. If you join anyway and choose to violate them, expect to be asked to leave.
The purpose of this site is to further the development of portable software, to make our products better and to allow users to have a place for support for that software. It is a not a public soapbox where anyway can stand up and talk about whatever they want. Nor is it so anyone can harass and make snide remarks because they feel like it.
So, yes, removing disruptive members is highly appropriate when they interfere with what we are trying to accomplish. *Any* site will do this, as they should. If they don't, the legitimate users get annoyed and leave and you're left with spammers and trolls.
Sometimes, the impossible can become possible, if you're awesome!
It's less like a public park and more like the local YMCA. Open to anyone, who is willing to act within certain guidelines.
Actually, the "funny handshake" is called a terms-of-service, and making it inaccessible to someone who doesn't seem to get it is exactly what is happening.
Just because a business happens to set up shop on main street doesn't mean they don't still reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.
Quamquam omniam nescio, nec nihil scio.
This is John's house.
We are his guests.
He is an amazingly gracious host.
It's a lot of work for him, so I try not to make it any more difficult for him.
If he needs to block someone that insists on peeing in the houseplants, I back him 100%.
I made this half-pony, half-monkey monster to please you.
I couldn't have put it better myself. So much great work is done here, so much to appreciate. Anyone getting in the way of that, really should just leave.
...What did I miss?
Cancer Survivors -- Remember the fight, celebrate the victory!
Help control the rugrat population -- have yourself spayed or neutered!
I thought the exact same thing.
"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate."