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malaise
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LiveZilla

LiveZilla please.

[Given a meaningful title rather than "Product Request" - mod Chris]

Gord Caswell
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for websites

From the quick Google research I did, this appears to be for websites...care to expand on your request?

malaise
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Thanks. There is a portable

Thanks.

There is a portable version on their website (.zip) but once uploaded it requires a client to be able to chat with anonymous users on the web and I'd like Pa.com to move in this direction as well.

ottosykora
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what do you want use that for?

@malaise

as you did not explain what it is for, I tried to 'decode' from all that descriptions on their website what that might be.

So as I understand, it is kind of spyware, the main part runs on a webserver and helps the owner of that website to track and spy on the visitors of the particular website. The client spyware has to be placed on the users computer, so one can get all information from that computer more easy.

it is according to their website able to:

to include critical information such as:

Navigation history
Referral Information
Geo Location (Country,Region,City)
Landing page
Last active time
Time on site (for each page)
Number of visits
Number of pages visited
Screen resolution
Network name & ISP... and more

Q therefore: are you serious in asking for such spying instrument?

Otto Sykora
Basel, Switzerland

Ken Herbert
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Doubt it does anything on the visitors PC....

Most of that is available through most (good) website analytics such as Google Analytics, which skim the data using Javascript, nothing actually needs to install on the visitors PC for that.

The only additional thing this seems to offer is the chat functionality.

malaise
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Live Zilla is chat

Live Zilla is chat technology, so I don't have to be worried about being ignored if I send an email to Sir Haller, simply because I am not a (potential) partner and nor do I have to mess around with amateurs in a chat room.

Ken Herbert
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You want PA to install it?

Not to be negative, but can you imagine how little time John would have left to develop the platform if he had to answer chat requests through LiveZilla every few minutes?

malaise
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LiveZilla would actually

LiveZilla would actually improve development since gurus can chat to gurus as well as answer new entrants.

What I don't know is, would it integrate with drupal logins.

best

TaffinFoxcroft
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IRC?

Why not IRC? I mean like hey, it's more open, it's an actual standard and there's more people to help. If you're after John specifically for help, the best way's IRC.

But there’s no sense crying over every mistake,
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

malaise
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Maybe I got taken in by the

Maybe I got taken in by the "zilla" part but I thought it was open source and you just see a zip version and think hey, but if no integrate with drupal then i guess no.

Mir
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Chatzilla

a number of people join #portableapps on irc.freenode.net/6667 using it as well as some other program that makes them pa####.

i dont think livezilla would add anything. if people cant stick around on irc to get help then they dont need it then in the first place.

00:00[pa4765 join the chat]
00:01[pa4765] HALP!
00:02(pa4765 has left the channel)
00:02[Mir] what do you need help with?
00:03[Mir] #*$%^& 
vf2nsr
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UM

Amateurs........I wonder what would happen if all the amateurs of PortableApps stopped what they did

“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.” Dr. Seuss

John T. Haller
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We have live chat

We already have live chat on IRC. It's an open standard that can be used with open source software including multiple portable apps that we publish. We also have a live chat right in the browser which is also open source and open to anyone. LiveZilla is simply unnecssary.

Additionally, our chat room is staffed 24/7 by a number of PortableApps.com developers, app packagers and advanced users. Calling them amateurs is both insulting and unwarranted. I'm definitely not the only one that can assist with development or help with questions. Heck, I'm not even the most knowledgeable when it comes to answering questions on the PA.c Launcher (that would be Chris Morgan and kAlug) or on many of the apps we package (that would be the packager for that specific app).

The only things I'm specifically needed on is business-oriented stuff, platform coding and project direction. And I am on IRC every day or every other day, I'm just generally not on when actively working on something else. Additional queries can be placed without issue in the forums.

As an aside, it would seem that this may be a duplicate account for you, which is forbidden by our forum guidelines. If this is the case, please acknowledge it here and we will merge it into your main account and simply issue a warning this time.

Sometimes, the impossible can become possible, if you're awesome!

malaise
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That's ok, there's no need to

That's ok, there's no need to take things personally.

The problem though with the whole OSI "movement" is it tends (IMV) to put *geek* tools ahead of traditional customer service paradigms but lately the whole PA concept has taken massive leaps forward, so I was hoping for more in the aforementioned area.

Best of luck

Mir
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this is a Opensource community here

no one is paid (or is paid very little) to do anything. there is no money for dedicated support. there is little money to expand services. thats the whole point. you get what you pay for. IE if you get a program for free you have to deal with the availible free support (if there is any at all) and then deal with possibly not getting the help you need when you need it just because the person who can help you is on the other side of the world sleeping because the next day they either have 8 hours of school or 10 hours of work or god forbid BOTH!

malaise
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Hi, But IRC is really only

Hi,

But IRC is really only for those who already understand, not those who want to know more without having to sign up to a forum.

Mir
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and you think a AIM like chat will be better?

Sorry but IRC works just fine and isnt that hard.

What do you mean by learn more?

Gord Caswell
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False

Support is available for anyone, no matter what the question is.

The browser-based irc chat client we have available here doesn't even require a username.

Mir
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HOLY $*@^

We have a chat client! now i know where those $*@^&$ing pa#### come in and out of! Thanks Gordcaswell!

Gord Caswell
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You're welcome.

You're welcome. It does allow users to use their own nick if they choose. I've used it myself a few times for spam alerts.

Chris Morgan
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Trail

Looks to me like the trail is scant.regard (unused) then immediately scant_regard for ten weeks, then plethora for another ten weeks, now malaise for five.

I am a Christian and a developer and moderator here.

“A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.” – Proverbs 15:1

malaise
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I decided to unlike you

I decided to unlike you because I don't want my information displayed on this website.

Take or leave the feedback given, since to sit on ones' laurels may not be a future-proof solution.

Gord Caswell
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Information not displayed

Your personal information isn't being displayed on the website, Chris (and John before him), is just pointing out that by creating multiple accounts you are breaking the rules set for these forums.

Mir
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Unlike

that not a very nice thing to say to an OP who is just pointing out something perticularly something that on other forums would lead to a perma ban. Chris is nice and is giving only a warning. (i think)

malaise
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Exactly the point. Why should

Exactly the point.

Why should anyone have to sign up to the forum just to provide feedback, which may even be highly critical.

By the same token, why should an end user have to go to a public chat room or indeed download an IRC application.

Gord Caswell
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What do you suggest instead?

If a user can't give feedback using a forum or live chat, how do you suggest they do so?

Mir
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second that

How? is there another way? Surely not Bugzilla.

Mir
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who said they need to download

As Gordcaswell stated there is an online one from the site itself.there are many online ones like mibbit and even freenode has a java client.

I understand the signing up for a forum bit as i have so many logins and passwords to remember i really dont want to add to them just to report a bug. but i also understand that a forum like this will allow others to know there are issues or a fix.

Aluísio A. S. G.
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Freenode Java client?

Where did you found it? The only chat app I know they have is the one we're using.

Previously known as kAlug.

Mir
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Its here
Chris Morgan
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Using it

That's what we're using.

I am a Christian and a developer and moderator here.

“A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.” – Proverbs 15:1

John T. Haller
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Avoiding Spam, Abuse

To avoid spam. To avoid abuse. To make sure we can ask a followup question so we don't get a lot of pointless "X DOESN'T WORK!!!!" bug reports. Etc. The chat room doesn't require any personal information to use. The forums merely require an email address from any public provider to signup so we can keep straight who is who and contact them outside the forum if needed for some reason. This isn't really complicated or unique.

Now, again, if you'd like, I can consolidate your usernames for you. Otherwise, we will have to look into other solutions. Creating multiple logins for no reason is bad form and against our forum guidelines.

Sometimes, the impossible can become possible, if you're awesome!

Ken Herbert
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Because you will generally

Because you will generally find a solution to a problem quicker in a public area such as a forum or IRC as opposed to a one-on-one chat environment.

Nobody knows the ins and outs of every app or every issue that may arise, where posting it publicly allows a larger number of people holding a greater deal of knowledge between them to see the issue at hand and offer solutions.

Also, in the case of reporting actual bugs, it is better to have a public report of the issue and know it is there for multiple people to see than to provide it in one-on-one chat and hope it makes it further up the chain.

Chris Morgan
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What?

I don't understand your logic in the slightest.

  • If you care about giving your feedback, you'll give it when it's as trivial as signing up. Or they can report it in the IRC channel.

  • What is wrong with going to a public chat room? Do you not comprehend that we don't have the resources to deal privately with people, and even if we did it would generally produce an inferior experience? The ability to have multiple people chip in, and have the people who know what's what on a given subject tell you, is beneficial. If you've got something you don't want to be proclaimed generally, then you should probably be reconsidering it anyway.
  • You don't need to download an IRC application. That's what the Live support chat page is for.

I am a Christian and a developer and moderator here.

“A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.” – Proverbs 15:1

malaise
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Something such as LiveZilla

Something such as LiveZilla gives the option to leave a message or see if chat can be engaged and the back-end software is such that the service could be undertaken by various people like those developers/peers present here.

As John has pointed out there are spam issues, none the least the way it refreshes the page constantly thereby changing the page title but in the long run it could potentially give that professional edge that this place so often lacks.

John T. Haller
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Perception

Your perception is that something like this adds to professionalism. Personally, I think the opposite and when a site pops up a live chat prompt at me, I leave. As already made very clear, this will not work here and you would wind up with a single user attempting to respond who would be less likely to be able to actually answer your question. As your question has been asked and answered, there is no reason to continue to ask it without responding to the multiple valid points raised by others.

Now, one final time, you have been caught abusing the multiple login policy of this site and refused several friendly offers to resolve it, including outright ignoring me asking you about it directly more than once. Do you wish to resolve it, or should we resolve it ourselves?

Sometimes, the impossible can become possible, if you're awesome!

Ken Herbert
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As much as I want to continue

As much as I want to continue the discussion, as you are purposefully ignoring both Chris' and John's requests regarding your multiple usernames, I am no longer going to reply to you in any thread until you resolve the issue at hand, and I urge everyone else to do the same.

malaise
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If your software says

If your software says something to you about a particular situation, then resolve it but please don't patronize users about netiquette unless you are actually prepared to do as what is being promulgated.

Personally I don't care what my username is so do as you will because I am only trying to offer some feedback but having only a public forum (and by extension chat) means the whole rest of the world must be wrong and yet the arrogance being expressed is palpable.

Good luck

John T. Haller
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Missing The Obvious

You can keep repeating yourself, but the simple fact that the most successful free software in the world (Firefox, Google Chrome, uTorrent, LibreOffice, OpenOffice.org, etc) all have online forums as well as IRC channels as their primary means of support and none of them offer live one-on-one support or email support means quite a bit. I don't think any of them even have a live web chat built into their sites.

Live one-on-one support only makes sense for specific industries where you can have trained people paid to answer and then only when dealing with paid (or soon-to-be-paying) customers. It's simple economics. None of those free software publishers I mentioned offer individual support outside of forums and IRC. They don't even offer *paid* individual support. Mozilla tried that a while back and it failed miserably. Even charging a lot per incident, the company couldn't make it worthwhile to keep people paid to be online ready to answer questions.

So, we do the same things the big successful publishers do. Moreso, even, as we have it live right on the site.

Now again, would you like me to combine all your previous accounts into your current account, into one of your other logins, or just lock them all?

Sometimes, the impossible can become possible, if you're awesome!

Mir
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Neat choice of words

you are obviously well versed.

Promulgation is the act of formally proclaiming or declaring a new statutory or administrative law after its enactment.

so you are accusing JTH of enacting this law formally now? Sorry to disappoint you but he has made mention of it when another user a few years back started using multiple nicks.

Netiquette (short for "network etiquette" or "Internet etiquette") is a set of social conventions that facilitate interaction over networks

if you dont like it then you can leave any time and not come back.

Also if you hate the interaction of the forums, then why did you sign up using multiple nick? This makes no sense to me. why would you bother coming back to a site that you claim to have unprofessional support, not once but multiple times.

Personally I don't care what my username is so do as you will because I am only trying to offer some feedback but having only a public forum (and by extension chat) means the whole rest of the world must be wrong and yet the arrogance being expressed is palpable.

I will say this again. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!

gluxon
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Let me start off with this.

Let me start off with this. John has asked you 4 times now about your multiple accounts. I recommend you answer him for your own good.

Private chat solutions for support are simply not the way to go for non-profit organizations. As already stated, each developer has their own area of expertise. Would you like our developers confronted with questions they can't answer?

Our current support solution allows more than one person to help out our users. This is clearly the more practicle approach and resolves the problem presented above.

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