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My apologies and forget I was ever here, I won't be back.

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February 29, 2008 - 4:44pm
#1
k3nd00d@yahoo.com
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My apologies and forget I was ever here, I won't be back.

Obviously even if there was a freeware section here, I'd be derided as a troll and eventually...once someone actually downloaded and tried my pack...I'd be chastised for not using NSIS and using different methods to make it faster and more simple (for some). I don't even see the need to use NSIS or any other Windows Installer standardized installer for a project seeking to make standalone packs, its kind of an oxymoron approach. If you can't deploy a standalone app with an SFX (RAR SFX being the most powerful), then you are using installers that, by their nature, touch the host OS.

Anyway, please don't even bother replying. Let this topic go down the page untouched...or delete it and ban me. Whatever. I just felt like speaking some peace to poWAR as I leave disgusted and disappointed.

Seriously, though, I apologize for breaking your unwritten rules and displeasing THE ONE and his chosen followers.

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February 29, 2008 - 5:16pm
wraithdu
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Check your other post, you

Check your other post, you still have options as I posted.

But for god's sake, drop the attitude. It's just juvenile.

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February 29, 2008 - 5:23pm
Patrick Patience
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Goodbye

It's unfortunate you're not staying. Sure, a few users can be a little harsh from time to time, it happens. However, nobody was chastising you, just providing a little feedback and comments, and if they were I'm sure it was completely unintentional.

The reason we use installers is to make things easier for the end-user, there were many users (me at one time) unsure of how to use the self-extractor as obvious as it seems. The installer used here is intended not to really touch the OS at all.

It's really too bad that you think you're being chastised, etc. Sure, every forum has its difficult members, but ours is much more civil than many others, and we're proud of it as it's the result of implying small, but easy to comply rules, most which seem common sense.

You keep thinking that we're all listening to John, and only John, and make him sound like some strict forum police. John is nothing but a man who dedicates days, weeks, and more of his time to keep this project ongoing. There's dozens of users here all in their teen years of below who are now developing portable apps because of him, and may go further in that path all because John and his choosing to make the source open.

I believe almost all of us are extremely over-pleased with the work of John, and can never really thank him enough.

I don't understand how you're a member for 10 hours and believe you can begin making true judgments about this site, its members of many more years than you, and its owner. It is John's site, so he may make rules (simple to comply to) as he chooses.

Sorry to see you leave, and thanks for the beta test?

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February 29, 2008 - 8:15pm
(Reply to #3)
digitxp
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*Starts sobbing about what you just said*

I think that he would actually be a pretty nice person to have around once he decides to stay and posts positively.
*Starts sobbing again*
Oh, don't forget this post : https://portableapps.com/node/11584

Insert original signature here with Greasemonkey Script.

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February 29, 2008 - 6:25pm
Hung0v3r
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http://www.ehponline.org/docs

[link removed by moderator PP to prevent further dispute]

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February 29, 2008 - 6:56pm
(Reply to #5)
Patrick Patience
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Hung0v3r

I've removed the link to prevent further arguments, and more and more uncivil conversations as are occurring much to frequently lately.

Thanks for your cooperation. If the link was infact non-offensive, I apologize.

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February 29, 2008 - 6:33pm
ZachHudock
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@Hung0v3r

that post wasnt at all helpful....remove that link....please....we don't want to chase anybody farther away, and stuff like that will definitely do so.

The link doesnt really do anything anyway, just takes me to a page that says i dont have permission to view the file. but from the URL, it's clear what it implies.

The developer formerly known as ZGitRDun8705

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February 29, 2008 - 9:28pm
BuddhaChu
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Ummm...I was work all day

What did I miss?

Cancer Survivors -- Remember the fight, celebrate the victory!
Help control the rugrat population -- have yourself spayed or neutered!

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February 29, 2008 - 9:31pm
(Reply to #8)
ZachHudock
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read here. We've got mostly

read here. We've got mostly everybody back on track and being civil now though, so it's all good.

The developer formerly known as ZGitRDun8705

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February 29, 2008 - 9:49pm
(Reply to #9)
BuddhaChu
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rgr

I started to follow that thread, but gave up as I'm too tired as you can tell from my typo above...

Cancer Survivors -- Remember the fight, celebrate the victory!
Help control the rugrat population -- have yourself spayed or neutered!

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February 29, 2008 - 10:07pm
LOGAN-Portable
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RAR SFX being the most

RAR SFX being the most powerful

Actually I did some testing on that recently and found out that using 7-Zip offers even better compression that RAR in many cases. Of course sometimes only a few KB but sometimes MB's depending on the content.

I however prefer a setup exe (wether it is NSIS or Inno Setup, I don't care) because it makes it much easier for me to install without the bother to browse folders etc. And because both use the same compression method as 7-Zip it makes for the smallest distribution often beating a Zip and RAR file.

Shame to see you go...

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February 29, 2008 - 10:23pm
(Reply to #11)
k3nd00d@yahoo.com
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Compression levels/abilities

Compression levels/abilities has nothing to do with the "power" I refer to. I am referring to the abilities to control pre-extraction, post-extraction options and all sorts of other settings. If you want truly portable apps they need to be SFX distributed, not installer distributed (there is a difference, the installers work heavily with the Windows Registry, for example). There is no good reason to use any MSI compliant installer (which all major and most minor installers are, including NSIS).

But hey, you people do your slow plodding way and make and support a small handful of portable apps and the rest of us USB flash drive people will take the basic idea and the platform and actually use it and not expose ourselves to your criticism and even some poorly informed rants or assertions.

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March 1, 2008 - 5:24am
(Reply to #12)
MarkoMLM
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Please inform Yourself ...

...a little bit.

The used PA installer don't write to the registry.
If You ever have a look a the source code You'll see it.

It is digital signed and comes with the full source code, so the user can trust him.

Simply google for rar sfx ... It is the prefered way to bring malware, trojans and other 'beautiful and helpful stuff' to the users. If You or something else believe that is the better way, please do so. Good luck for You and all 'the rest of the USB flash driver people' whereever whoever they are.

Marko

Paid for Software more or less?
What You need is OSS!

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March 1, 2008 - 5:39am
(Reply to #13)
k3nd00d@yahoo.com
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Ignorant one... Any malware

Ignorant one...

Any malware can be packaged in any SFX or installer. Clue, get one.

Regarding the PA Installer. If it uses NSIS or Inno or similar, it will touch the Windows registry, sorry.

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March 1, 2008 - 5:57am
(Reply to #14)
LOGAN-Portable
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Inno Setup uses the registry

Inno Setup uses the registry for the uninstaller only. And because portable apps don't use uninstaller, Inno doesn't use it then. For NSIS I assume it's the same. You can check yourself if being in doubt.

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March 1, 2008 - 6:23am
(Reply to #15)
MarkoMLM
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You are so right ...

to call Your self an ignorant one Smile

NSIS does what You tell it to do. If You tell it have to write to registry it will do it, if not, it will never do it, that's it (and btw rar sfx could do this too if You'll use pre- or post install scripts/batches).

Sure, every sfx or installer could be abused (NSIS too) but I only said, that rar sfx is a prefered method.

But if You think You know all about portable Apps why You don't follow Your own words and ignore us and leave?

As I said it ...
... good luck an bye bye.

Paid for Software more or less?
What You need is OSS!

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March 1, 2008 - 12:14pm
(Reply to #16)
rab040ma
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Peace friend

Yes, NSIS is designed for making installers, but that's not how we use it when building launchers. Yes, NSIS can write to the registry, and we use it for that, but we also use it to clean up the registry after a program runs.

NSIS, it turns out, can be used to create very small standalone programs that aren't necessarily installers. If you look at the scripts (they are included in each package) you'll see that they are doing more than installing; in most cases they are:

  • adapting the program for portable use by adjusting paths from one mounting to another (in case the drive letter changes)
  • setting up and then removing registry entries that the program might need to run
  • putting any preference files into a "Data" directory for easy backups and to keep them from being overwritten by updates.

The only registry entries created by a launcher (when the programmer doesn't leave any behind) are the ones Windows makes for any program, e.g. MRU.

There are a bunch of ways to make a launcher. Some earlier launchers were made with 7-zip, others have been done with autoIt. The menu is done in Delphi, so the people creating the suite aren't exactly naive when it comes to programming. The bottom line is that the NSIS launchers are small, easy to maintain, very powerful, run cleanly, and do what is needed.

I'm pretty sure that if you come up with a program that does what an NSIS launcher does, it could be included in the suite. Those things are based on function:

  • putting user settings into Data\settings, for backup purposes and to keep them from being overwritten by updates
  • including appropriate icons and meta-information
  • the code should be signable (authenticode-type)
  • the code should have an unambiguous license
  • the code should have few and unfettered dependencies (e.g. DLLs).

The structure should be fairly standard too, so the menu doesn't have to keep track of a different kind or placement of executable for each program. These aren't things that only NSIS can do, nor is NSIS necessarily the best tool; but it is a tool, it does the job, and that's what gets used.

Feel free to be the resident skeptic, to complain when pragmatism turns reactionary, to be a vocal idealist or visionary, to ask questions that might be uncomfortable to answer. But you might write with the expectation that some of the people around here are at least as knowledgeable as you, and (gasp) might have something to teach, just as you may have something we can learn from. People with differing opinions and experience add depth to a team and produce a better outcome, when they interact with respect.

MC

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March 1, 2008 - 5:54am
(Reply to #17)
LOGAN-Portable
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Maybe you are right about

Maybe you are right about the pre-extraction and post-extraction, I don't know. My tests are based on compressing many things. 7-Zip uses LZMA. I found out by trail and error LZMA is better than RAR in many cases and much better than ZIP. Although I admit it also takes much longer to compress.

And no registry usage for the installer (unless you use the uninstaller or the application -not portable- uses it).

My opinions are mostly based on own observations and research on the Internet, and while not everybody agrees with me, I try to inform myself about these things.

At one time I was also against using an installer and rather have a zip, but I just discovered that I'm lazy enough to appreciate the ease of use for them. But creating installers might still over complicate things in my view.

I agree with you that the thought of a stand alone app needing an installer sounds silly, but in essence the setup is almost like a self extracting archive in this case with additional feature of auto detecting the correct folder to be installed. (Saves me manually browsing). Besides the installers work as good without using PortableApps menu and not even require USB drives.

PS. I don't agree RAR files are the preferred way of distributing used by malware simply because malware uses every possibility to be distributed. It can as easily use a installer.

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March 1, 2008 - 12:30pm
Tim Clark
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@MetaMods

@MetaMods,

Me thinks it's time to lock this topic.

@All,
Until this topic is locked Please take this a request from a moderator to end the "discussion" and stop replying.

@KenDood,
It is sad that you have had a bad experience here at portableapps. At this point this discussion has digressed greatly. There is now a mix of good/bad ideas, differing but legitimate opinions, barbs and insults. As it appears to me that most useful exchange has occurred I am requesting that this topic be locked. This is not a reflection on you but on the digression of the topic in general.

Hopefully in the future you will come back and share with us anew and things will be more pleasant for all.

Respectfully,
Tim

Things have got to get better, they can't get worse, or can they?

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